Electret experiments

[Reiyuki]

Standard Al foil (.0005 thickness) and 1mil plastic sheeting (hardware store paint drop-cloth) .001 thickness should be good. 500 layers per inch of thickness . With microscopic manufacturing (electroplating?) techniques you could probably get thousands.

Still some questions and variables:
- Do salts effect output? or perhaps doping with bismith/iron/aluminum oxide/wax/pixie dust? As long as it's baked in with the plastic

- Also wonder whether it would run better if plates were in series or parallel, or a combination thereof.

When I get a chance I'll test it out.


have fun

[Vortex]

Is that voltage multiplier circuit? since what I recall Peter Lindemann mention that this kind of circuit has very poor efficiency where the diode act as resistor and dissipate more heat than transformer. But since electret making require no current I think this kind of circuit suits well for electret making.

Sucahyo, I side tracked the thread a bit. I was wanting easy way to
output known voltages of many values and Inquorate thought that idea
could also be applied to electret output.
I wanted to take a unknown source voltage and step it down or up with
a single circuit, maybe using caps.

Yes, that is much like the voltage multiplier. Yes Peter did say that a
multiplier was not efficient. I guess I just need multiple transformers.
I'm curious, how is it that a JT can act like a step-up transformer
without having a many-to-few turns/windings, but can have a one-to-one
turns?

I don't understand that diagram I posted.
To show my ignorance I say: "I don't know what those triangles are
with little circles on the tips are. What they are symbols for."

I have a solar panel that outputs 19+ volts @ 0.5 amps.
I'd like to knock it down to around 12 volts @ ??? amps and did not know how. I'll have to make a transformer.

[sucahyo]

I'm curious, how is it that a JT can act like a step-up transformer without having a many-to-few turns/windings, but can have a one-to-one turns?

Isn't that what coil collapse current do? Although I notice that the voltage will be low if the load has low impedance. But I manage to burn some fan's chip because I put the fan in serie which make the impedance high and make the voltage high and the chip get over voltage.

I have a solar panel that outputs 19+ volts @ 0.5 amps. I'd like to knock it down to around 12 volts @ ??? amps and did not know how. I'll have to make a transformer.

This link have a step up or stepdown using IC:
A 12 Volt Switching Power Supply.

[Vortex]

Isn't that what coil collapse current do? Although I notice that the voltage will be low if the load has low impedance. But I manage to burn some fan's chip because I put the fan in serie which make the impedance high and make the voltage high and the chip get over voltage.

This link have a step up or stepdown using IC:
A 12 Volt Switching Power Supply.

Oh, yeah .. coil collapse .. I was tired and wasn't thinking .. but that's my
normal mode of thinking

[Inquorate]

Gum Rosin

I found some gum rosin!

11092009744 - Vox

Love and light

[Inquorate]

Working Electret

Even without the gum rosin, I finally got a working Electret using salt

YouTube - My first Electret to build it's own charge

Love and light

[morpher44]

really big L

Even without the gum rosin, I finally got a working Electret using salt
Love and light

I would like to warn you away from anything radioactive...Lets not go all IRAN...about this.

Radium Watch-Dial Painters

I think it would be more desirable to come up with a solution that everyone can replicate and everyone can get the materials for.

Also, Radio frequencies are too high for power, in my opinion.

What you really want is a WIDE-BAND receiver that is wide enough
to receive from a host of many many frequencies ... for the ELF up to the AM band or so.

If you think about what that takes, it is just LARGE inductance with low resistances and small capacitance.

So your experiments with electrets, charges, ionization ... all good ... but then you want to bring it into a system that resonates ... and does
so at a low frequency.

If you do the math for series LRC circuits ... if L is absolutely huge, then Q goes WAY up.

I was thinking about this equation:

E = IR + L(di/dt)

Suppose you had a circuit where R is your load ... and you want
an I. All you need is a changing current on L, and you get an I
on the load because equilibrium will want to force this to balance.

If L is HUGE, just a little change in the current arriving to L will cause
a LARGE current across the load.

This is conservation of energy ...
So all you need is a big inductor ... a way to get a bit of
current to arrive to it on a steady oscillating basis ...
and then tap it in your load.

The trick here is to make a really big L ... with a really low resistance.

[exxcomm0n]

Do you think CD-R's might work?

I've been following this thread for a while as a successful electret would help greatly in a generation design I'm toying with so I have a few questions and perhaps a possible electret media that nearly everyone has on hand.

The media I propose is CDR's.
Most CDRs use a cyanine layer as the record layer and some preliminary investigation seems to say that it is both a conductor (cyanine in solar cells) and an electrolyte.

If this proves true, could you either sandwich a few CDRs between HV conductive plates in the "classic" electret method, or spindle stack CDR's on a conductive shaft and wrap the outside of the cylinder in a metallic sheathing capped on both ends with a non-conductive barrier and then use the heat/HV electret process to make an electret with the center of the cylinder as one polarity and the exterior of it as the other?

Something like this:

"Classic" electret -

_________________ <---- top conductive plate
------------------------
------------------------ <---- CDR's
------------------------
``````````````````````````````` <---- bottom conductive plate

Cylindrical electret -

_________________ <---- non conductive plate
|-------------| |-------------|
|-------------| |-------------| <---- outer conductive cylinder with
|-------------| |-------------| CDR's inside (negative polarity?)
|-------------| |-------------|
``````````````|-|````````````` <---- non conductive plate with center
electrode (positive?) through it

A lot of questions seemed to make their way into that media theory, but here are the other questions I'd like to ask those of you actively experimenting:

Instead of using a neon transformer for the HV/mA charging of the heated media could you use a motor driven mechanical electrostatic induction machine like a wimhurst or dirod generator to furnish the HV? (this assumes the use of a diode that keeps the inductor part of the electrostatic generator charged continuously as one polarity instead of switching polarities after discharge.)

Has the use of pulsed HV vs. continuous HV ever been tried when making electrets?

Could a pair of electrets be used as the inductors on a mechanical electrostatic machine like those mentioned above?

Like this (top view):

(ASCII omitted since it doesn't render well in this instance. See attached image below.)

(This shows inductors. The collectors would be inline with the central shaft of the rotating disk in the center.)

Just some things to think about and experiment with. Sorry about the bad ASCII art, but I still can't figure out the code for a 1/2 space and this forum software seems to ignore spaces if there are more than 2 in a row.

Thanks to all for the experimentation and insights you've provided in this thread!

[Inquorate]

I like the way you're thinking exxcomm0n

QUOTE=exxcomm0n;68000 I've been following this thread for a while as a successful electret would help greatly in a generation design I'm toying with so I have a few questions and perhaps a possible electret media that nearly everyone has on hand.

The media I propose is CDR's.
Most CDRs use a cyanine layer as the record layer and some preliminary investigation seems to say that it is both a conductor (cyanine in solar cells) and an electrolyte.

If this proves true, could you either sandwich a few CDRs between HV conductive plates in the "classic" electret method, or spindle stack CDR's on a conductive shaft and wrap the outside of the cylinder in a metallic sheathing capped on both ends with a non-conductive barrier and then use the heat/HV electret process to make an electret with the center of the cylinder as one polarity and the exterior of it as the other?

Something like this:

"Classic" electret -

_________________ <---- top conductive plate
------------------------
------------------------ <---- CDR's
------------------------
``````````````````````````````` <---- bottom conductive plate

Cylindrical electret -

_________________ <---- non conductive plate
|-------------| |-------------|
|-------------| |-------------| <---- outer conductive cylinder with
|-------------| |-------------| CDR's inside (negative polarity?)
|-------------| |-------------|
``````````````|-|````````````` <---- non conductive plate with center
electrode (positive?) through it

// sounds like a viable area for experimentation, I especially like the non conventional sideways charging and possible uses as a wheel

A lot of questions seemed to make their way into that media theory, but here are the other questions I'd like to ask those of you actively experimenting:

Instead of using a neon transformer for the HV/mA charging of the heated media could you use a motor driven mechanical electrostatic induction machine like a wimhurst or dirod generator to furnish the HV? (this assumes the use of a diode that keeps the inductor part of the electrostatic generator charged continuously as one polarity instead of switching polarities after discharge.)

// because you only want small current (you only want to align the electrolyte, not cause it to gather at each end; my last Electret cracked due to this), a static generator like a wimshurst etc should be sufficient. Again, experimentation will show conclusively if this is so.

Has the use of pulsed HV vs. continuous HV ever been tried when making electrets?

//I haven't tried pulsed dc in Electret formation, theory says the molecules will not align as well. However, pulsing a working Electret with square waves would be interesting..

Could a pair of electrets be used as the inductors on a mechanical electrostatic machine like those mentioned above?

// yes, the challenge will be to incorporate the Electret's slow refresh rate into the design, or increase the refresh rate. 1, by adding radio sensitive materials, 2, by adding magnetic fields

Like this (top view):

(ASCII omitted since it doesn't render well in this instance. See attached image below.)

(This shows inductors. The collectors would be inline with the central shaft of the rotating disk in the center.)

Just some things to think about and experiment with. Sorry about the bad ASCII art, but I still can't figure out the code for a 1/2 space and this forum software seems to ignore spaces if there are more than 2 in a row.

Thanks to all for the experimentation and insights you've provided in this thread! /QUOTE

// thanks for following the progress, and for sharing your ideas. I look forward to seeing the results of your experiments

Love and light

[Inquorate]

I would like to warn you away from anything radioactive...Lets not go all IRAN...about this.

Radium Watch-Dial Painters

I think it would be more desirable to come up with a solution that everyone can replicate and everyone can get the materials for.

Also, Radio frequencies are too high for power, in my opinion.

What you really want is a WIDE-BAND receiver that is wide enough
to receive from a host of many many frequencies ... for the ELF up to the AM band or so.

If you think about what that takes, it is just LARGE inductance with low resistances and small capacitance.

So your experiments with electrets, charges, ionization ... all good ... but then you want to bring it into a system that resonates ... and does
so at a low frequency.

If you do the math for series LRC circuits ... if L is absolutely huge, then Q goes WAY up.

I was thinking about this equation:

E = IR + L(di/dt)

Suppose you had a circuit where R is your load ... and you want
an I. All you need is a changing current on L, and you get an I
on the load because equilibrium will want to force this to balance.

If L is HUGE, just a little change in the current arriving to L will cause
a LARGE current across the load.

This is conservation of energy ...
So all you need is a big inductor ... a way to get a bit of
current to arrive to it on a steady oscillating basis ...
and then tap it in your load.

The trick here is to make a really big L ... with a really low resistance.

Electrets could be a very good source of tapped power to run say one of dr Stiffler's exciters.. And possibly get excited in the process..

I get what you're saying about high L in LRC circuits for the Q; I recommend ppl read dr Stiffler's thread.

Love and light

[Inquorate]

Another attempt

I hope these updates help people; I'm trying to save people from stumbling blocks I've encountered if they choose to experiment.

YouTube - latest Electret recipe

I've added magnesium sulfate and salt as well; gotta keep the additives to a minimum total though, as it comes out of solution when the wax solidifies, and this can compromise the strength of the Electret.

I may also add powdered Ferrite, as I read somewhere that an Electret made this way and put in a magnetic field can refresh faster.

Ps does anyone know where I can get lead sulfate (Galena) or at least sulfur?

YouTube - Cooking the Electret

Love and light

[Inquorate]

Alternatively..

Easier way to make an Electret - Vox

[Inquorate]

Galena

I found a source of Galena crystal.. Never underestimate the power of the word 'paypal' in a google search; it's how I've been finding everything of late..

Galena Mineral Sample for Mineral & Rock Kits

GALENA Lead Sulfide, Natural, mini-sm 1/4 lb bulk metal - eBay (item 110360543470 end time Oct-02-09 12:02:38 PDT)

This is why I want to use Galena

http://earlywireless.com/pdf/pw_xtal...nters_hdbk.pdf

Love and light

[ourbobby]

Karl is at it again!

Hi Rob
I do think the surface of the sphere may need a electret, like the earth has a atmosphere maybe different polarity matched to the coils? and the black stuff being the coal and oil(Ozokerlite?)in the coils.

keeping the stressfields of this planet apart the sun and the core? dupping alot of carbon on the surface every thousand/millions of years?
she maybe trying it again soon.
take care
Bod

Ok, Bodkins, I am partly through my research on the Karl Sphere. Your black covering would have to be some sort of catalyst. The "Glowing Magnetic " core is probably KOH. He does not use Electrets in the Stator. He might be using them in the Rotor. The Stator is indeed very simple. Its the Rotor where all the action occurs. So the original electret theory should work fine.

The Schappeller sphere is nothing more than an early attempt at a "Alkaline Fuel Cell" because of difficulties maintaining his original thesis. This does not mean that it didn't work. On the contrary, I think you will find that his original attempts in the 1920's actually produces a fusion in the "Core" to generate the Glowing Magnetism". He would have ultimately found this to be very unstable - think HHO or what might be called Brown's Gas. Very explosive. Where he trialled the implosion of Hydrogen and Oxygen fusion. He would have had great difficulty controlling this event and keeping H and O separated. His big contibution is the catalysing of water into H and O. That's it. That's the secret IMHO.

The Glowing Magnetism is now a hydroxil compound. ?OH

Also very confusing with Davson's book, is the manner with which he adds ambiguity to his nomenclature!! You will need to carefully go through and compare his arguments at each stage to find out where the heck he is talking about with regards to the position or "Event" within the Device.

I'll get out of your hair now. Might build one soon when I have found a suitable explanation for his use of the term catalyst!!

Regards
Rob

[Bodkins]

Ok, Bodkins, I am partly through my research on the Karl Sphere. Your black covering would have to be some sort of catalyst. The "Glowing Magnetic " core is probably KOH. He does not use Electrets in the Stator. He might be using them in the Rotor. The Stator is indeed very simple. Its the Rotor where all the action occurs. So the original electret theory should work fine.

The Schappeller sphere is nothing more than an early attempt at a "Alkaline Fuel Cell" because of difficulties maintaining his original thesis. This does not mean that it didn't work. On the contrary, I think you will find that his original attempts in the 1920's actually produces a fusion in the "Core" to generate the Glowing Magnetism". He would have ultimately found this to be very unstable - think HHO or what might be called Brown's Gas. Very explosive. Where he trialled the implosion of Hydrogen and Oxygen fusion. He would have had great difficulty controlling this event and keeping H and O separated. His big contibution is the catalysing of water into H and O. That's it. That's the secret IMHO.

The Glowing Magnetism is now a hydroxil compound. ?OH

Also very confusing with Davson's book, is the manner with which he adds ambiguity to his nomenclature!! You will need to carefully go through and compare his arguments at each stage to find out where the heck he is talking about with regards to the position or "Event" within the Device.

I'll get out of your hair now. Might build one soon when I have found a suitable explanation for his use of the term catalyst!!

Regards
Rob

mmm good luck rob i hope you get the thing working Im still in fantasy land with this and see it as a connected sphere planet alinement thingy
take care
Bx