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  • Create energy with conservation of momentum law.

    Someone with the alias "pequaide" has been promoting this concept for over 2 years now but he hasn't been getting the attention it deserves. The concept is very simple to understand and experiment with so I don't know what the deal is with the lack of support.

    I made this thread to help spread the concept as there's not a single thread that mentions it on here.

    The concept is rather simple. The system is able to transfer momentum from a large mass to a small mass completely. If this is done energy would be created. Here's a small example:

    100kg moving at 1m/s has 100 Units of Momentum (UoM) and 50 Units of Energy (UoE).

    Now if all that momentum was transfered to a 1kg mass then that mass would end up moving at 100m/s and have 5000 UoE.

    As you can see conservation of momentum leads to a 100x increase in energy in that particular case.

    This also works the other way around. You might be familiar with the ballistic pendulum. Where a small mass transfers its momentum to a big mass.

    Ballistic Pendulum

    If we then have a 1kg mass traveling at 100m/s with 100 UoM and 5000 UoE transferring all its momentum to a 100kg mass. Then that mass would end up moving at 1m/s with 50 UoE. So we end up with 1% of the initial energy we started with.

    Since the physics books tells us energy can't be created nor destroyed then that means 99% of that energy must have turned into something else than kinetic energy. Heat and sound are the most favorable excuses. But I leave it up to you to believe the ridiculous fact that 99% of the energy is turned into heat/sound (regardless of material choice or the fact its performed in a vacuum) or that energy is not a conserved quantity.

    My view is simple. The ballistic pendulum destroys energy in order to conserve momentum. Newton also recognized he couldn't find the correct final velocity of a ballistic pendulum setup if he used energy conservation. But using conservation of momentum always lead to the correct result. He said "'if instead of conserving energy you conserve momentum, you will get the right answer, for momentum is not convertible to any other form." That last statement is very important. Momentum or inertia as some like to call it has NO OTHER FORM than mass multiplied by the amount of velocity it has.

    So far there's not a single known experiment where momentum gets destroyed or created in one single cycle. If a certain mass has a decreasing momentum (force) caused soley by the interaction of another mass then that mass has no choice than to transfer all its momentum to the mass causing the decreasing momentum. Regardless of setup or type of inertaction.

    The main question now of course is how is this done? What is the concept or apparatus that transfers momentum from a big mass to a small mass completely?

    The concept is rather simple. You take a flat laid heavy fly wheel and attach a rod on its rim which has a certain small mass at its end. You give the setup an initial spin and then release the small mass. Due to the centripetal and centrifugal force the movement of the mass will cause the heavy flywheel to stop. Since motion/inertia of the flywheel can't be destroyed the only option left would be that the small mass has gained all the momentum that was in the flywheel.

    Here's a video showing an animation of one such concept:

    YouTube - Momentum transfer device.

    3d animation:



    Both setups are rotated initially and then the small weights are released and move outwards on their own causing the big setup to decelerate. Since motion has to be conserved the quantity of motion is thus transfered completely to the small weights and as the simple math example above energy can be created by orders of magnitude than what you started with.

    Now as far as I know pequaide has been the only person who experimented with a different concept using tethers and found excess energy. But his experiments are very limited and so is the support. We need more people involved and bigger setups to be experimented with.

    Anyone with the tools or machine shop can build the experimental setup to prove energy creation. If enough have proved it, more will contribute ideas to building a simple and efficient self sustaining concept. This would be open source collaboration at its best.

    I'm sure I haven't said everything that had to be said, but this should be enough to get your minds started. There are some small details concerning the animated concept but those can be addressed as this thread progresses.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by broli; 07-16-2009, 12:12 PM.

  • #2
    Hi Broli,
    That's an interesting concept, but I have a few questions.
    How is the momentum transfered from the large weights to the smaller ones? I don't see any sort of connection.
    Also, if the momentum is transfered, how is the calculation of excess energy made? Does it take into account the energy required to get the device up to speed?

    Cheers,

    Ted

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Ted Ewert View Post
      How is the momentum transfered from the large weights to the smaller ones? I don't see any sort of connection.
      You are very observant I indeed forgot to add the connection in the 3d animation and didn't bother correcting the thing due time constraints.

      The connection can be a simple peg that drags the light setup along the heavy setup. When the momentum transfer occurred this small peg has to move out of the way so the small masses can keep on rotating. This can be simply done by allowing the peg to be pushed over by the rotating light setup when it passes by after 180°.

      Originally posted by Ted Ewert View Post
      Also, if the momentum is transfered, how is the calculation of excess energy made? Does it take into account the energy required to get the device up to speed?
      The energy output calculation is simple. It's best to use a photogate timer. Using a scale you measure the mass of the small weights combined with the velocity of the photogate you can calculate kinetic energy by using KE=0.5*m*v^2.

      Input energy can be determined by multiple methods. You either use gravity and the energy calculation becomes simple. Or you can be more technical and perform some experiments that will give you the moment of inertia (I) of the wheel. Once you have this you can combine this with the initial angular velocity (w) of the setup to get the initial kinetic energy of the system using KE = 0.5*I*w^2.

      There are no random things. This is as basic as science can get.

      The COP is in direct relation with the mass ratio. To put it simple if you transfer the motion of 100kg of mass to 1 kg of mass the cop would be 100/1=100. In a more realistic table top model the mass ratio might only be 10 thus theoretically COP would be 10 as well. Of course big losses such as air friction bring that number down a bit.

      Comment


      • #4
        It doesn't seem like this concept is going to get popular. I wonder why.

        Comment


        • #5
          It's a difficult concept to fully visualize. The transfer of momentum is easy enough to see, but whether this can convert into real usable energy is yet to be determined.
          One part of a total mechanism having a high COP does not necessarily indicate general OU. Like you say, it needs to be built and tested.

          Cheers,

          Ted

          Comment


          • #6
            My idea of recapturing the energy to reset it is using a rotational wind up spring like used in toys. This is hardly a big feat to accomplish.

            But that's besides the point as the first phase involves gathering data which any handy mechanic can do with a simple setup.

            I see numerous threads on here mostly talking about aetheric current, scalar waves, omega pulses, nodal resonance... that are mostly way beyond my head. But I have yet to see one setup that either proves without a doubt COP > 1 or that is closed loop.

            This though can be hardly said to be complex. Any novice can perform the experiments and prove it. It's mechanics 101.

            Comment


            • #7
              Broli: The problem is that it's not the momentum that's conserved, it's the energy. The 1 Kg mass will not end up moving at 100 m/s, it will end up moving at 10 m/s. That's the critical flaw in this one so you can move on!

              MileHigh

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by MileHigh View Post
                Broli: The problem is that it's not the momentum that's conserved, it's the energy. The 1 Kg mass will not end up moving at 100 m/s, it will end up moving at 10 m/s. That's the critical flaw in this one so you can move on!

                MileHigh
                I won't justify that with an answer. Milehigh can you please move on from this thread? And this counts for any future posters. If you prefer to be ignorant please don't post in this thread.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hey Broli, I hope I am not going against the focus of this tread but in another (and much smaller forum) I discussed the idea of using leverage to increase the kinetic energy of masses with momentum. At least purely theoretically it seems very plausible.
                  Here's the link: Time to start doing the unthinkable...

                  If you look further down the tread you see that the focus shifts from using mechanical weights into using hydraulics. There are several good reasons to this, primarily because of the fact that you can use one quantity of water with a piston to raise another equal quantity of water to any height you would want.....
                  Its all about leverage, and in this case it is the thickness of the output pipe which decides how high the water will go.

                  I hope I didn't go too much of topic here, great tread btw!
                  Julian

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yes the concept is quite different. You should make its own thread to discuss it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Yeah it slipped into another but very interesting area of research.
                      But still I get what you're saying here, it is basic physics!

                      As an example:
                      Leverage or gears of the ratio 1:2 can transfer the momentum of a wheel with 60 rpm and 10 kg into a wheel of 5 kg and make it reach 120 rpm. What is called 'simple machines' do this for us, but when you double its speed and halves it mass you DO double its total kinetic energy.

                      E(k) = V^2 * M * 0.5

                      Where
                      E(k) is the kinetic energy
                      V is velocity and
                      M is mass.

                      If the ratio is 1:10 then the total increase of energy will be 10,
                      ergo the COP will be 10.
                      Efficiency is not the right thing to use because the TOTAL energy in and out must be the same, but there can be "transactions" of energy which we are not aware of. In this case I think there is.

                      Julian
                      Last edited by Naboo; 07-18-2009, 06:38 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        @broli
                        How are the UoM and UoE calculated?

                        @Naboo
                        Something like that has been discussed (breifly) on this forum. If you want to make a new thread on here about it, I can share an idea I've had that might make it easier to build
                        Old thread: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...ity-force.html

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yes that is correct. Do you have a suggestion on how to transfer the momentum with gears? The biggest "secret" in the above idea is using inertial forces, that is forces that are caused by the very movement of the object, to allow the momentum transfer. These are not conservative fields.

                          When you use a conservative field like from a spring, momentum would no longer be conserved as you would be storing the kinetic energy from one mass and transferring it over to another.

                          So any idea that uses some sort of inertial interaction between masses to deplete momentum from one mass will cause the other mass to gain that depleted momentum.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by haethae View Post
                            @broli
                            How are the UoM and UoE calculated?
                            1 Unit of Momentum = 1kg x 1m/s (mass x LINEARvelocity)
                            1/2 Unit of Energy = 0.5 x 1kg x 1m/s^2 (0.5 x mass x LINEARvelocity^2)

                            They are just the known textbook formulas.

                            Note that momentum is not a vector but a scalar quantity unlike textbooks tell you. It is the quantity of motion that matters not its direction.
                            Last edited by broli; 07-18-2009, 06:54 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by broli View Post
                              Yes that is correct. Do you have a suggestion on how to transfer the momentum with gears? The biggest "secret" in the above idea is using inertial forces, that is forces that are caused by the very movement of the object, to allow the momentum transfer. These are not conservative fields.

                              When you use a conservative field like from a spring, momentum would no longer be conserved as you would be storing the kinetic energy from one mass and transferring it over to another.

                              So any idea that uses some sort of inertial interaction between masses to deplete momentum from one mass will cause the other mass to gain that depleted momentum.
                              When I first began to think about proving this experimentally I thought about using weights of different masses, which by long treads or ropes then would be connected to a simple gear.
                              By adjusting the gear so that the source weight could lift both smaller and larger weights you could calculate how much energy that was used in the source weight, and then how much you could get from the lifted ones. That is the scenario from where I got those numbers.

                              Of course lifting weights in that manner is not a good way to store momentum, it would have a very lousy efficiency so a wheel of some kind or a hydraulic setup would have been much better. But it is definitely possible!
                              Imagine a weight of a hundred kilograms one meter above the ground.
                              It can then with a gear lift another weight of 1 kilogram almost a hundred meter up (almost because you need a small difference in order to create imbalance of the two forces).

                              Potential energy of weight with mass 100 kg and height 1m = 4802 Joules.
                              Potential energy of weight with mass 1 kg and height 100m = 480 200 Joules.
                              or about 480 Kilo Joules....

                              Julian
                              Last edited by Naboo; 07-18-2009, 07:33 PM.

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