Inductive Circuits - The "Classical" Approach

[wantfreeenergy]

Tesla Switch

I suppose I'm not in the same league as you all. But as far as inductive goes you are talking about using coils to extract the energy right.? "See I don't know much." When the wire is given a deliberate sharp pulse at the moment it switches off excess energy rushes in.

And the same with the TS. When you stack the voltage above what it's going into then create a pulse from it, when it turns off excess energy rushes in. But there is a space/material needed for it to rush into/on. So you use batteries/caps. I've seen the replications where people used one battery and the rest caps.

Maybe this can help?

[Armagdn03]

Something a lot of people misunderstand;

The inductive discharge does NOT switch polarity.

If you imagine the currents (two separate ones) going into an inductor with directionality, you can more easily understand the inductive discharge.

Positive charge will enter the positive terminal, and exit the negative terminal. What is coming out of the negative, is positive.

Negative charge enters the negative terminal, and exits the positive terminal. What is coming out of the positive terminal is negative.

When an inductor sees a "change" its efforts are in resisting that change. When you cut power to an inductor, it tries harder to continue putting positive out the negative terminal, and negative out the positive terminal, just as it had been doing.

[poynt99]

Something a lot of people misunderstand;

The inductive discharge does NOT switch polarity.

If you imagine the currents (two separate ones) going into an inductor with directionality, you can more easily understand the inductive discharge.

Positive charge will enter the positive terminal, and exit the negative terminal. What is coming out of the negative, is positive.

Negative charge enters the negative terminal, and exits the positive terminal. What is coming out of the positive terminal is negative.

When an inductor sees a "change" its efforts are in resisting that change. When you cut power to an inductor, it tries harder to continue putting positive out the negative terminal, and negative out the positive terminal, just as it had been doing.

I hope this is still not a confusing issue with anyone. I as well as others have hammered this issue to death several times on the other thread.

Put simply, when the inductor is disconnected from the source, the voltage polarity across its terminals reverses, and the current ramps down. How quickly the current ramps down, and how high (in the reverse polarity) the voltage goes depends on how much load is seen by the inductor after it is disconnected. Simple as that.

.99

[Aaron]

oscillation

Aaron wrote: -

Maybe not but this sidesteps the fact that there are mosfets specifically designed to self-oscillate as there are mosfets that are designed to specifically not oscillate. When it oscillates, it may encounter avalanche.

Aaron, you are getting very confused about this. Mosfets's are not designed to self-oscillate, this is nonsense! Repetative avalanche simply means that the physical build of the mosfet can withstand multiple high energy pulses to a certain rated level without breaking down.

Hoppy

I think you're the one that is confused. You know how many circuits are out there that specifically take advantage of the oscillation? Many. Stop production of all mosfets that oscillate and you'll have a riot. Whether or not the company makes them to be able to oscillate or not is irrelevant. If they oscillate, that is an intrinsic characteristic of the mosfet, period, plain and simple.

This is like drugs with side effects - there is no such thing as a "side effect." They are all 100% direct effects of the drug. It doesn't matter if it happens to be an effect, it is an innate part of the mosfet.

Avalanche is problem with breakdown and oscillation is oscillation. And it can oscillate without breakdown.

[Aaron]

oscillation

Perhaps the HF oscillation does give better results, but for now since most have not been able to get the HF oscillation, I am going on the premise that Rosemary's statement about the HF oscillation not been required to achieve COP>1, is true.

Mosfets are used in many applications specifically because they oscillate so well. I have done the research after learning about Rosemary's circuit and it is all over the web from industry references, massive amount of patents on self oscillating mosfet circuits, audio circuits, etc...

Even on IRF's website in all the technical docs, they give you many scenarios and values of components for the mosfet to oscillate at different frequencies. It is all right there. I know because I took the time to look it up.

I agree the oscillation should not be required to achieve a gain according to how the circuit is supposed to work.

[poynt99]

The Capacitive Circuit

It looks like there's only going to be the one response from MileHigh.

You got pretty darn close MileHigh.

See the attached diagram:

Inductive Circuit: Voltage Source
Capacitive Circuit: Current Source

Inductive Circuit: Series Switch
Capacitive Circuit: Shunt Switch (it's valid to short a current source)

Inductive Circuit: Instant voltage, ramping current
Capacitive Circuit:Instant current, ramping voltage

Inductive Circuit: Unlimited current from source
Capacitive Circuit: Unlimited voltage from source

Inductive Circuit: Inductive Kickback = voltage kickback
Capacitive Circuit: Capacitive Kickback = current kickback

RLOAD can be anything, including a battery or capacitor (with noted polarity) as shown. For even better efficiency, replace RC with a wire.

Note that the duty cycle has to be inverted with the current source. Current is being diverted away from the capacitor C6 for 96.3% of the time. Charging current is 2.4A, but the reversed "flyback" current can be as high as 90A.

I can show scope shots is requested. Does anyone not understand how this capacitive circuit works and how it is indeed a true inversion of the inductive circuit?

.99

[Joit]

I dont think, that Caps do replace Coils.
With Caps you only rumbel the Current/Energy around, and with a Coil you have a EM Field what is more 'elastic' and has inductive Current still.

A Resistor additional to the Coil looks like a good Idea, Size should maybe about double, as the Coil has.

But i dont think too, that one Simulation take care, if you put a Teslacoil or a Standard Coil in there.
There are still other Devices, what do make Coils after a golden Ratio.
Or the same, when you loop a Coil once with a Diode.
But anyway, just Caps i think dont match to this.

[Altair]

OK I'll take a bite...

From the power source, the load is in series with a capacitor connected to ground. The Mosfet is in parallel with the capacitor, discharging it rapidly when fully charged through the load.
Of course, there is no advantage in doing this...
Unless an inductor is being put in series with the Mosfet, which could be a way to discharge the capacitor "below ground" (reverse charge), with correct timing.

But as your question did not mention the use of a second inductor, I wonder if it would not be possible to build some kind of bridge with 2 mosfets and a capacitor, and swing the current twice in the load for each input pulse.
There would be a P-channel Mosfet at the positive supply, then the inductive load, then a capacitor to ground. Then, from the junction of the P-channel mosfet and the load, there is a second Mosfet (N-channel) to ground. Operation is: P-channel turns ON, charging capacitor through the load. Then it turns OFF and the N-channel Mosfet turns ON, discharging the capacitor through the load again, to ground.


That was my 2 cents.

[Altair]

Oops ! I'm coming a bit late, I see. I forgot to read page 2 of the thread before posting. Anyway...

Regarding the supposed reversal of current in the inductor, yes this is a misconception that I would have wanted to point out many times earlier.
The inductor acts as a current source, and when the mosfet is turned OFF, the inductor will do all it can to preserve the established flow of current. So there is no reversal of current, it is just the polarity on the inductor that reverses.

[Altair]

@ .99,
OH, I see, you weren't after an efficient capacitive circuit, you were just looking for the "mirror" circuit for R.A.'s circuit.
I think this one would be awfully inefficient if built.

[Joit]

Btw, Wire is anyway only Wire and only an Inductor.
Then it should make not a different, when you use Coppercores or Alloycores or Ironcores at a Coil.
I would be interested at That Result..

[MileHigh]

.99:

Excellent example! I am rusty and did not think to "transpose" the voltage source for the inductor circuit into a current source for the capacitive circuit.

A coil integrates voltage over time to give you a magnitude of current flow through the inductor.
A capacitor integrates current over time to give you a magnitude of voltage across the capacitor.

It's all so "elegant."

I prefer to use the term "Yin-Yang." It is kind of apropos in the sense that you are always playing with two variables, the "through" variable and the "across" variable, for both of these energy storing devices.

Look at caps and inductors for almost any paramater for any type of excitation and this "Yin-Yang" complimentary pattern is readily evident.

I guess that "current source" would be an enigmatic concept for a lot of people in your audience.

In fact there is one staring us in the face all the time: The heating resistive component of the coil-resistor acts as a current source when it is dissipating electrical energy and turning it into a "flow" of heat energy. This heat current source is charging the thermal mass of the body of the coil-resistor. The body of the coil-resistor is a thermal capacitor. Finally, the heat coming off of the hot coil-resistor is due to the fact that there is an equivalent thermal resistance to "ground" (the ambient temperature).

So here is the "heat" circuit: A current source charging a capacitor in parallel with a resistor. The "through" variable is the heat flow (current) and the "across" variable is the temperature difference between the coil-resistor body and the ambient temperature (the voltage).

We know that the energy in (the heat flow) must equal the energy out (dissipation of heat from air convection and radiation). If there is no balance then the capacitor keeps on charging until something gives, i.e.; the coil-resistor material starts to get friendly with the oxygen in the air. Therefore the temp of the coil-resistor rises with an exponential curve and starts to even out at the "final voltage" where the same heat flow in has to become the heat flow out.

This is why just measuring the temp of the coil-resistor body under controlled conditions is such an accurate way of comparing the running circuit power and the pure-DC-equivalent power. Even if the thermal resistance is likely somewhat non-linerar with respect to temperature, you are still left with the fact that the energy in must equal the energy out.

Well, that was a long-winded way of saying that the electrical energy dissipated inside the coil-resistor body acts like a current source in the "thermal electrical circuit" that models what is going down in the real world.

Really big sheww, .99, really big sheww....

MileHigh

[poynt99]

Thanks MH.

I had no doubt that you would "get it".

Altair and Joit, I'm not sure you are getting it.

The point was to demonstrate an equivalent of the inductive version using a capacitor. It has nothing to do with efficiency or OU, and it's not specific to RA's circuit. I've clearly showed that there is a capacitive circuit equivalent to the inductive one.

Joit, it would seem that you did not even give any thought to how the circuit works. How can you dismiss it based only on opinion? I would encourage you to examine how it works. It might give you some insight into the inductive circuit as well.

So, aside from MH, if anyone doesn't understand anything about how this circuit works, please don't hesitate to ask. There really is no difference between the two circuits, other than as MH mentioned, basically the currents and voltages are transposed.

If the circuit is understood, I invite anyone to illustrate where or how the circuit would operate OU. What is the OU mechanism here? If the inductive circuit exhibits OU, then surely this one must also. Please show how.

How would Rosemary's zippon (or whatever) theory transpose to the capacitive circuit?

A really big sheww indeed

.99

[poynt99]

Harvey, you out there?

@Harvey.

Are you interested in backing up and defending some of your statements?

I've commented on several points which can be found on the first page of this thread.

.99

[MileHigh]

Joit:

> I dont think, that Caps do replace Coils.
With Caps you only rumbel the Current/Energy around, and with a Coil you have a EM Field what is more 'elastic' and has inductive Current still.

The capacitor stores the electrical energy in the electric EM field that exists in the space between the two plates of the capacitor.

The coil stores the electrical energy in the magnetic EM field that exists around the coil.

The "elasticity" of the capacitor's electrical EM field will try to sustain voltage, and changing voltage results in changing current.

The "elasticity" of the coils's magnetic EM field will try to sustain current, and changing current results in changing voltage.

Once more the Yin-Yang complimentary relationships between capacitors and coils are revealed.

Time to eat more Spice....

MileHigh