Marko Rodin

[Mark]

I would be very interested to see what happens if ferro fluid was put inside the doughnut part of a standard Rodin coil. Does it spin? Could we put a regular small coil inside the inner hollow of a Rodin coil to generate power? Anything interesting if we wrap a Rodin coil around a ring magnet?

[blackchisel97]

I would be very interested to see what happens if ferro fluid was put inside the doughnut part of a standard Rodin coil. Does it spin? Could we put a regular small coil inside the inner hollow of a Rodin coil to generate power? Anything interesting if we wrap a Rodin coil around a ring magnet?

I have wound on ferrite and magnet - nothing exciting observed.
I tried Rodin's coil with neo sphere inside. It was spinning so it makes me believe that ferro fluid will behave in similar way.I have a few ideas to test, as soon as I have more time and I'll share the results, even if they don't prove any "miracle".

Cheers
V

[Dave45]

Way to go Morper the piston effect is awesome sounds just like a motor too cool.

[cody]

Morpher that is a very strange wave pattern you have there. Have you any idea what it might be? I have to comment on the statement you made about a regular air coil not being able to do the piston effect you describe. Every speaker relies on the piston action, otherwise it wouldnt produce any sound, and speakers use regular air coils. If your thinking thats due only to the ac signal from the amp, then consider Bob Teals motor. It uses air coils to produce a piston action literally to make a motor with dc pulses, obviously an air coil works fine for the piston effect. Mine works fine too. Now i will agree with you that above a certain frequency, both the rodin coil and an air coil will just look like a solid field to the magnet and suck it in without noticing the piston effect anymore. Perhaps you meant to say something else, or just worded your point so it was hard for me to understand. I believe I have done exactly what you are doing, with both coils. Could you please clarify your driver, is it a PWM? I think its a good idea to make an air coil with the same wire specs as the rodin coil if we are going to be comparing them. Now, maybe its possible that the rodin coil will produce the piston effect at higher frequencys than a standard coil, which would be good. But you would also have to consider that the field strength is weaker in the calculations. Its all interesting stuff though. Ill have to start playing with my scope to see if i can get any of your waveforms, i dont have ferro material in my rodin coil so it would be good to see any differences between them

[redrichie]

bedini

hey I posted something similar to this in the one magnet Bedini thread. HAs anyone tried Putting a ring type neo thats diametrically magnetized and connected to a shaft inside of the Rodin coil? I know Jamie has but he wasnt using a Bedini type pulsing circuit as far as I know and his neo was just rotating around the shaft like a bushing and not a low friction bearing. If you havent seen it Jonnydavro has made an amazing machine that is almost frictionless. The people on this site never stop pushing the envelope. After watching Bedinis replication of the Kromrey converter I would recomend using a non magnetic shaft with this setup. It may cause some interferance (just guessing here). Ive seen the video with the Rodin and the sphere that Geminitric has posted so assume ths will work.
A shaft with 2-3 rodin coils and matching ring neos for the drive and either sattelites or attached neos with pickup coils. Should be interesting. And has anyone tried using the Rodin as a pickup coil? I will be replicating these ideas soon. having to wait to order more neos next week. thanks

[morpher44]

more on piston effect

Morpher that is a very strange wave pattern you have there. Have you any idea what it might be? I have to comment on the statement you made about a regular air coil not being able to do the piston effect you describe. Every speaker relies on the piston action, otherwise it wouldnt produce any sound, and speakers use regular air coils. If your thinking thats due only to the ac signal from the amp, then consider Bob Teals motor. It uses air coils to produce a piston action literally to make a motor with dc pulses, obviously an air coil works fine for the piston effect. Mine works fine too. Now i will agree with you that above a certain frequency, both the rodin coil and an air coil will just look like a solid field to the magnet and suck it in without noticing the piston effect anymore. Perhaps you meant to say something else, or just worded your point so it was hard for me to understand. I believe I have done exactly what you are doing, with both coils. Could you please clarify your driver, is it a PWM? I think its a good idea to make an air coil with the same wire specs as the rodin coil if we are going to be comparing them. Now, maybe its possible that the rodin coil will produce the piston effect at higher frequencys than a standard coil, which would be good. But you would also have to consider that the field strength is weaker in the calculations. Its all interesting stuff though. Ill have to start playing with my scope to see if i can get any of your waveforms, i dont have ferro material in my rodin coil so it would be good to see any differences between them

Hi Cody.
re: the inductive ringing...
Yes ... I am pretty sure this is the line voltage (60hz) entering my circuit (which is on a prototype board with large capacitance). It occurs both when I use a 12V power supply (plugged in) and also a 12V battery as the supply power. In the battery case, it enters inductively thru the wires due to the nearness of the oscilloscope (and perhaps also the scope probe wire as well).
Last night I placed a 468uH toroid coil between my pulse circuit and the power supply and all the inductive ringing STOPPED.
This has the effect of shunting all AC so that it cannot enter into
my pulse generator.
Someone using a function generator probably wouldn't see
the ringing like I was seeing ... since a professionally made
function generator would take care with such filtering.

I think this ringing is interesting, however, as I want this effect.
I think what this might point to in a line of research is the notion
of pulsing the Rodin coil in more complex ways ... so I have
to think this over a bit.

One mystery I'm not able to understand, though, is that the ringing
can happen between pulses but between other pulses, no ringing.
I would think it would be there between all pulses.
I think its a timing thing that depends upon the ring
cycle and where it completes as the pulse arrives. Its a weird
effect. I've just never seen it before ... but I admit that most
of my career has been looking at digital waveforms from
embedded computer systems
(not analog power-supply waveforms).

re: piston effect
Oh ... I didn't mean to imply that an air coil could do this
effect. Rather, I was thinking, speculating, that one
avenue of research (especially in this propulsion area)
will likely want ferromagnetic material within the Rodin coil.
You can boost the inductance and hold more Joules of energy
in the coil.
E(stored) = .5 * L * I ^ 2
So yes you can increase I in an air core ... or you can
increase L with ferromagnetic material.
If you want to save power, you go ferro.
Yes the reactance goes up with L, so you have to keep
the frequencies low. Low frequencies are compatible with
creating mechanical spin.
Yes speakers need a piston effect to ... but the mass
involved to move air is less than to say move a metal
piston turning a wheel.

re: pulse generator circuit
My circuit is the 555 timer circuit found
in the book "Son of Tesla Coil" by George Trunkaus.
I alter the caps and resistors to the 555,
to alter the pulse widths, frequency, duty cycle, etc.
To get a duty cycle less than 50%, I decided
to add another NPN transitor as an inverter
between the 555 and the 2N3055. I can go
back greater than 50% by not using this middle NPN.
I was using this circuit to pulse my Auto Ignition Coil,
so its a very useful chopping circuit.
I find that pulse currents can be driven up to say
2.5AMPS. Beyond that you probably need MOSFETS or something.
I like the idea of doing this with lower power, low current if possible.

re: your experiments with dampened oscillations
Perhaps if your coil is moved NEAR your test equipment
or other sources of magnetic fields, you might see odd
ringing. The reason this might occur a bit easier with
ferro in the coil is that if the ferror has a pulsed FLUX on it,
it moves you up the B-H curve which alters the inductance in the
coil. Hence, the inductance in my Rodin coil is non-linear ...
depending upon the fields it is exposed to.
Air has a permeability equal to u0.
So a flux in the air will not alter your inductance much.

[morpher44]

"Tuna Can" Rodin Coil As A Microphone?

I wonder if you can hook a Rodin up as a microphone and hear
the fields sloshing around?

YouTube - "Tuna Can" Rodin Coil As Microphone?

[morpher44]

next one I wind...

yes still watching videos every chance I get..

Also I think my next one I wind I will use a torus shape with a larger tube dia. so the center where the wires cross is not at as much of a sharp angle. Try to keep all the windings touching the surface of the torus shape.
The inside shape being the shape my first coil was.
and the outside shape is the one I want to wind.

I was thinking about Torus geometry and I was thinking
that I bet phi is important.

The equation for the volume of Torus is:

V = 2 * (pi)^2 * R * r^2

where pi = 3.14159...
R is measured from center of Torus to center of a tube circle
r is the radius of the tube circle

So for a Rodin coil, I was asking myself,
"what are the ideal values of R and r?"

R needs to be large enough so that people can wrap it easily
with their hands. The coil I wrapped was 3.89" (99mm) in diameter.
This was a comfortable size for me. Any smaller would be
difficult.

If r is too large, yes the wires approach the center at a very steep
angle. If r is too small, the coil becomes more of a pancake style
coil.

Sacred Geometry appears to be Rodin's inspiration.

Does anyone have a formula that expresses the relationship
between R and r for a Rodin Torus?

I bet it involves PHI.

[morpher44]

damped oscillations

Damped oscillation mystery solved...

YouTube - "Tuna Can" Rodin Coil Damped Oscillation Study (Part 3)

[Cloxxki]

I was thinking about Torus geometry and I was thinking
that I bet phi is important.

The equation for the volume of Torus is:

V = 2 * (pi)^2 * R * r^2

where pi = 3.14159...
R is measured from center of Torus to center of a tube circle
r is the radius of the tube circle

So for a Rodin coil, I was asking myself,
"what are the ideal values of R and r?"

R needs to be large enough so that people can wrap it easily
with their hands. The coil I wrapped was 3.89" (99mm) in diameter.
This was a comfortable size for me. Any smaller would be
difficult.

If r is too large, yes the wires approach the center at a very steep
angle. If r is too small, the coil becomes more of a pancake style
coil.

Sacred Geometry appears to be Rodin's inspiration.

Does anyone have a formula that expresses the relationship
between R and r for a Rodin Torus?

I bet it involves PHI.

Good stuff, really enjoying your research and video's. I've been thinking about Rodin coil geometry as well.
I bugs me to no end that the wires don't ACTUALLY wrap around the tube. They barely touch half of it, the outer half. That just cannot be the optimal geometry. I want thinking that a smaller R:r ratio (fatter looking, smaller hole), might force the wire to stay ON the tube as it is wrapped. YES, the hole will get crowded. I would propose the very largest R:r ratio where the bottom layer still makes contact all the way around the toroid. I would furthermore propose wires to be wrapped tightly one against the other when going through the hole (tightest spot), and wider out when on the outside. So what, if they don't cover the surface of the tube? Make it nice and even, unless you know a way to get copper wire to be of exactly the right width, exactly when it's convenient for you. Say, 1mm to 3mm. A wire rolling and coil wrapping robot would be able to make this dynamic (compress and expand as Rodin preaches), but this will not be for today or tomorrow.

I'd like to see a Rodin coil (will admit to lack any kiond of coil experience myself) which geometrically acutally resembles Marko's sketches. Toroid shape, FAT looking. Evenly wrapped and stacked number strips.
I bet the variable thickness wire would enhance magnetic effects furher by having greater resistance through the hole, as all it compressed. But the real trick might be the following expansion, also of the 3-6-9 series in between. For that 3-6-9 series, I propose using a heat resistance non-conduction, non-isolating 3rd wire, mainly to aid in spacing. YES, we need that spacing to even be there in the tight stock in the center!!

Feel free to call me nuts, if you can back that up with arguments.

Thanks for making it this far in my reply,

J

[cody]

visualize the fields

I wanted to provide a visual so we can understand what is happening in the magnetic field and why it occurs as it does in the rodin coil. First we must start at the basics and understand how a magnetic field orientates itself in a regular coil. Look at the first group and you will see that the magnetic field goes perpendicular to the direction that the coil is wound, it is also concentrated in the center of the coil. Next lets learn about the field in a regular toroidal coil. Look at the next group of coils and you will see the the field is doing exactly what it did with a regular coil, we are just giving it a flux path to circulate in. Keep in mind that toroidal transformers are not wound all the way around the toroid, the first 2 pics show that clearly( yes i know toroidal chokes can go all the way around). Now lets take what we have learned and apply it to the rodin coil. You will see that the rodin coil wraps around the torus like a regular toroidal transformer, but also goes multiple revolutions around the whole toroid. So adding our perpendicular magnetic fields to the winding direction gives us an understanding of whats going on and how its different. This may have been common knowledge to some, but i like visuals

[morpher44]

shape of fields

Hi Cody,

Nice diagrams. Although, just to enhance this visualization a bit.
The Red and Blue lines don't just end like that. Actually in the cylinder shape coils, the field lines will BEND AROUND creating a toroid around the cylinder.
With a toroid coil, the toroid field lines are pulled into the ferromagnetic material which provides for a boost in impedance to the current (the field is stronger impeding current better). Cylinders suffer from stray field lines that exit at the end points and re-enter at the other end point, but they are so far away from the winding that they don't impede current very well.

With the Rodin coil, since the wires enter the center at a sloping downward angle, you have to apply the right-hand rule to each and every wire.
These will create a ANTI-VORTEX allowing for a magnetic field that is vortex shaped to fit nicely into that space. So its not that there are two spins, but rather a vortex.

The magnetic field will not be uniform in the Rodin situation.
Or better stated, it may not be exactly the inverse-squared-law.
Rather, it may have a steeper flux gradient change.
It does seem intuitive that only one sort of field -- a uniform field --
would be subject to the inverse-square-law .. because
in that situation the geometry is pretty simply ...
A point charge is influencing the universe spherically around itself in
all directions.

However, organize point charges into an arrangement where the
density of those charge carriers is different ... not uniform ...
over a geometry ... and you have to integrate using
that other stranger geometry.

So Faraday/Maxwell of course apply to the Rodin coil ... but
the geometry is a bit more complex.

I'm thinking that if a Rodin coil was made much larger,
with larger gauge wire,
and if higher currents were used to pulse it,
the so called "singularity" at the center of the coil
would be an amazing area to experiment.

From my very crude pickup-coil/microphone experiments,
the sound intensity increases magnificently as you approach
that singularity. I tried bring a buzzer ... and motors into that
area ... slowly .. so as not to go deaf. In the case of a DC motor,
you can hear some amazing sounds as it spins.

[cody]

Morpher,
Thanks for pointing that out, i was trying to keep it very simple so i didnt show the lines going all the way around the coils, nor and vortexing effect. But yes you are correct. Howard Johnson did some interesting work on the vortexing nature of magnetic poles and im sure the situation applies here. It would be nice to have the complex drawings to, unfortunatly they are also more complex to draw It would be really nice to have a gauss plotted 3d image of a rodin coil compared to a regular coil. I was a bit confused by your explanation of the rodin coil producing and anti-vortex that a vortex will fit in Ill think it over some more, maybe it will come to me, or maybe you could draw it out.

[morpher44]

"Tuna Can" Rodin Coil Experiments with High Voltage

YouTube - "Tuna Can" Rodin Coil Experiments with High Voltage

[marxist]

try to use the output !?

Hi morpher44

Great experiments. Thanks.

I find your last video very impressive, especially the first part, where one can see that the fluorescent bulb lights up. And one also sees that while it lights it produces electrical power, which discharges through the flashes/streamers.

Am wondering, whether it would be possible to harvest this discharge current and use it to power another load instead of allowing it to discharge "unused" straight to the coil.

So I propose to prevent the discharging and instead to attach a lead to the contacts of the bulb. This lead could go either:
- to ground or as an alternative
- back to the other end of the bulb

and then hook a load into this lead
or maybe charge a battery
!?