Tesla's mysterious Phantom Streams

[jeff_behary]

Vttc

Hi Jeff,

I don't quite know what to say for one of the few times in my life ..... not many people in the world that live the word known as "dedication" and in your case it means more that anyone can imagine

I saw a article in a magazine "How To Build It" January 1932 - Vacuum Tube Tesla Coil Does Fascinating Stunts. I see you have the same article posted at your web site and at present there is a thread here at Energetic on my attempt to replicate this "Vacuum Tube" Tesla Coil - TOY I don't know if you know much on this device ..... but if you do your comments would be more that appreciated.

Best Regards,
Glen

Glen -
That is a great article - and not too complicated! I think for someone to take the time to build it accurately would be a great service to us all. The article is well-known, but I'm not aware of anyone who actually built it!

Valves/Radio Tubes have an interesting history. They were invented at the turn of the century but took over 2 decades to actually come into use. The reason is WWI. The success of this battle largely involved communications.

The government scooped up all of the early Tesla Coil and Radio pioneers to help in the effort, and most of these men have a period of at least a few years where it was completely unknown what they did, evne by their families. They took great pride in their country!

Spark Gap Diathermy Machines, X-Ray Machines, Tesla Coils, etc. made interesting front page news during the 30s. At the height of the radio era, when everyone was flat broke and spent the best part of the day huddled around the radio listening to stories or mysteries/etc half of the show would get spoiled because the guy down the street was using a Violet Ray machine and causing everyone interference. This was happening across the country. As a result these machines were given a mandatory curfew of from 7 - 11pm. You weren't allowed to use them during these times. This led to a push toward solid state, which is why the early diathermy machines were set to 27 Mhz or so to avoid problems with the FCC.

Then WWII developed. Suddenly even the short wave diathermy machines could be used as transmitters. So then the FCC required licenses to operate them. The reason was to keep track of them - any stray machines could pose a security threat if they got in the wrong hands!

I hope you make that coil - it'll be cool!
Jeff

[lighty]

@Jeff

Hehe, I see you still remember old technologies enthusiasts from the birth place of Tesla. And of course you remember the beer.


BTW- about a year ago I did some experiments with rotational sparkgaps and I met a guy who produced rotational mercury interrupters for the University in Zagreb. I would have to find his number and contact him again but IIRC he also mentioned that there are very precise blueprints for such devices and the price of machining parts for one would be around 3000EUR. If you're interested I could try to contact him again and see if he can get those blueprints. Since I know your skills with machining it could give you at least some pointers about the technical details of mercury interrupters and perhaps you could do it yourself. If I'm not mistaken I also got information that at least two German companies are producing mercury interrupters commercially but again I would have to contact the same guy.

BTW- in the last two years I got some very interesting rare books which I think you would be very interested in but more on that on mail. I'm glad you decided to join the only sane (for the most part) forum on the net.

[jeff_behary]

Hrvatske pivo

@Jeff

Hehe, I see you still remember old technologies enthusiasts from the birth place of Tesla. And of course you remember the beer.


BTW- about a year ago I did some experiments with rotational sparkgaps and I met a guy who produced rotational mercury interrupters for the University in Zagreb. I would have to find his number and contact him again but IIRC he also mentioned that there are very precise blueprints for such devices and the price of machining parts for one would be around 3000EUR. If you're interested I could try to contact him again and see if he can get those blueprints. Since I know your skills with machining it could give you at least some pointers about the technical details of mercury interrupters and perhaps you could do it yourself. If I'm not mistaken I also got information that at least two German companies are producing mercury interrupters commercially but again I would have to contact the same guy.

BTW- in the last two years I got some very interesting rare books which I think you would be very interested in but more on that on mail. I'm glad you decided to join the only sane (for the most part) forum on the net.

Those blueprints would be superb. I know in Germany a company in the past waited for Tesla's patent to expire and then produced his exact model more or less. They sent him one as a gift, and although a bit strange to do such a thing Tesla was flattered. He knows how many took ideas without asking or simply make crude versions to suit their own needs and at least these guys were honest.
300EUR is practically free in comparisson to the work and effort involved. I would love to try and make one though for absolute certain.

I have learned recently (and disappoiningly) that Tesla scrapped and reworked some his early prototypes circuit controllers for later improved designs. I should say that he didn't but rather ordered his machinists to while he was in Colorado Springs. I was amazed to read some of the letters of that era. They spent more than one month skimping on mica for a condenser that failed in the end anyway for one of the table top units with rotating break. Hmmm.

It goes back to the old saying of being careful in the knowledge you seek, as you may find it...

[sucahyo]

Wow, what a replication .

If I recall correctly, some people refer the fractal stream as golden ratio geometry the same way as a tree grow?

[lighty]

Those blueprints would be superb. I know in Germany a company in the past waited for Tesla's patent to expire and then produced his exact model more or less. They sent him one as a gift, and although a bit strange to do such a thing Tesla was flattered. He knows how many took ideas without asking or simply make crude versions to suit their own needs and at least these guys were honest.
300EUR is practically free in comparisson to the work and effort involved. I would love to try and make one though for absolute certain.

I have learned recently (and disappoiningly) that Tesla scrapped and reworked some his early prototypes circuit controllers for later improved designs. I should say that he didn't but rather ordered his machinists to while he was in Colorado Springs. I was amazed to read some of the letters of that era. They spent more than one month skimping on mica for a condenser that failed in the end anyway for one of the table top units with rotating break. Hmmm.

It goes back to the old saying of being careful in the knowledge you seek, as you may find it...

I will see what I can do regarding those blueprints. And yes it seems there was a German company who presented him with their product based on his expired patents. Leland Anderson's historical work on Tesla is awesome and when I spoke with Gary Peterson I think he told me there are some more materials to come out.

On the other hand I told you about the "treasure trove" of Tesla's materials that I plan to scan (about 3000 pages). I'm still negotiating though since in return they want some extensive reworking of their failing equipment (due to negligence) which would take a lot of time which I simply don't have to spend.

BTW- it's not 300 EUR but 3000 EUR but even that price should be fine. The problem I had was that I had to switch low current but very high voltages (in the range of 50kV) so mercury interrupters simply wouldn't work for me. On the other hand for the purposes of Tesla coil primary interrupter I think it would work fine. Also, remember those blueprints of magnetic interrupter from that era that I sent you a while back- I did some corrections on that and may find some time to build it in the first quarter of 2010. Regarding that- do you have some source for Mica? I would like to make exact replica and using teflon of HV polyurethanes seems a bit... well... not authentic.

[jeff_behary]

Mica & Mercury

I will see what I can do regarding those blueprints. And yes it seems there was a German company who presented him with their product based on his expired patents. Leland Anderson's historical work on Tesla is awesome and when I spoke with Gary Peterson I think he told me there are some more materials to come out.

On the other hand I told you about the "treasure trove" of Tesla's materials that I plan to scan (about 3000 pages). I'm still negotiating though since in return they want some extensive reworking of their failing equipment (due to negligence) which would take a lot of time which I simply don't have to spend.

BTW- it's not 300 EUR but 3000 EUR but even that price should be fine. The problem I had was that I had to switch low current but very high voltages (in the range of 50kV) so mercury interrupters simply wouldn't work for me. On the other hand for the purposes of Tesla coil primary interrupter I think it would work fine. Also, remember those blueprints of magnetic interrupter from that era that I sent you a while back- I did some corrections on that and may find some time to build it in the first quarter of 2010. Regarding that- do you have some source for Mica? I would like to make exact replica and using teflon of HV polyurethanes seems a bit... well... not authentic.

I have some mica if you need a small amount - and don't know where to get this fine quality anymore (unlaminated) 50 x 75mm sheets or so, thin like paper, completely transparent.
3000 EUR? Oh. Too bad a Trabant will not work, can get about 6 for that price. Good thing I'm not in Europe. I'd be building propane/petrol powered Skoda Spark Gaps...

Ah, the treasure trove. And, oh, the restoration. Yes omit the ozone exhaust and put the coil in a bottle and see what happens. Is it completely green by now? I feel your frustration...

[lighty]

Yes omit the ozone exhaust and put the coil in a bottle and see what happens. Is it completely green by now? I feel your frustration...

It's so green like somebody massacred a bunch of Vulcans in there (yes I'm a geek, I know LOL). I mean it's beyond green. On the photos they sent me one can see that the layer of copper oxide is so thick it falls down in flakes. What they did to my baby is terrible. And then the call me ask me why there aren't any discharges from the top.

I considered providing them with stainless steel terminal but the price of making one would be too much for me to simply donate it to them. And sparkgaps oxidized horribly as well but they really should be made from copper so no help there. So, you understand my dilemma. I want to scan their collection and I even acquired two super-fast scanners (it would take two people about 16-18 hours to finish the scan if nothing goes wrong) but the amount of reconstruction would be so extensive I simply cannot do it for free.

On the brighter side I made another big Tesla coil for another museum and it was exhibited in Bratislava among a ton of other very interesting coils (I think I have pics somewhere) and finally it was exhibited in Madrid where people were allowed to operate it by themselves (I provided it with electronics which allows the coil to be turned on/off behind a VERY thick layer of acrylic with grounding target above discharge as well as by providing discharge points on the terminal in order to channel discharges to grounded "targets".

Anyway- I really think we should continue this conversation on mail. It's so OT it hurts.

[boguslaw]

Now look at this thought the knowledge of Tesla experiments :

"Keely assembled an apparatus on top of which was screwed a globe with several apertures to which tubes were fixed, leading to cylinders. A reporter asked if he could see the globe's contents, but Keely declined, saying that it would take too long, and that he wished to show results rather than the mechanism. Keely then proceeded by taking a violin bow and rubbing it across one of two large tuning forks which formed part of his apparatus. After making a minor adjustment to the device, he opened a stopcock leading into one of the cylinders and the witnesses heard "a hiss as of escaping air". Keely told them that it was in fact "etheric vapor", adding "It ain't compressed air or any vapor having substance." The force was then used to lift some weights, and Keely claimed that he had about 22,000 psi of pressure at his disposal.[23]"

[jeff_behary]

Keely Motor

Now look at this thought the knowledge of Tesla experiments :

"Keely assembled an apparatus on top of which was screwed a globe with several apertures to which tubes were fixed, leading to cylinders. A reporter asked if he could see the globe's contents, but Keely declined, saying that it would take too long, and that he wished to show results rather than the mechanism. Keely then proceeded by taking a violin bow and rubbing it across one of two large tuning forks which formed part of his apparatus. After making a minor adjustment to the device, he opened a stopcock leading into one of the cylinders and the witnesses heard "a hiss as of escaping air". Keely told them that it was in fact "etheric vapor", adding "It ain't compressed air or any vapor having substance." The force was then used to lift some weights, and Keely claimed that he had about 22,000 psi of pressure at his disposal.[23]"

Its hard read, as the envelope is brittle and crumbling. KEELY MOTOR, SIDE VIEW.

The Turn Of The Century Electrotherapy Museum (C) Jeff Behary 2007 - The Incredible Life Of John Keely; The last known photos of the Keely Motor from Kinraide's Laboratory

Thought you might like this URL. Good ol' Keely.

I don't know when, but one day, hopefully in the next few years (or at least before I die, whichever comes first) I will be writing the "rest of the story" on Keely. It's a personal goal of mine.

Until then, my lips are sealed!

But here is something rare:
The Turn Of The Century Electrotherapy Museum - Minority Report To The Stock Holders - The Keely Motor Company - John H Lorimer 1881

[Jetijs]

Hi Jeff
Great thread and much of valuable info and pictures here, thank you

I am also interested in these pancake coils and high frequency disruptive discharges. I have a little experience, but nothing compared to yours. For now I would like to build a big HV capacitor with adjustable capacity. I was thinking of using 250x250x1mm stainless steel plates with 3mm thick glass sheets between them. A total of 30 plates should give about 0.04uF of capacity. For the HV source I will use a 12kV 30mA supply. I think that 3mm thick glass plate should do fine at those voltages. The plates will be put in a big acrylic box with a plastic sliding mechanism so that I can slide the plates apart from each other and thus change the capacity. When the plates will be installed, I will fill the box with transformer oil to fill all the remaining air gaps. Can you maybe give me some advices or suggestions? I have never built a HV capacitor before, maybe there are better materials that are easy to get and to work with? Thank you!
Good luck!
Jetijs


Edit:

Here are two pancake coils we made recently. They are about 130mm in diameter and the wire used is 0.9mm. I am not sure about the turn count as I have not counted them yet, but both coils have the same wire length. One coil is the other coils mirror image. We will use these to play around with wireless electricity. The primaries are also wount so that they are a mirror image of each other.



I must say that it is hard to wind these coils if the diameter gets bigger because the windings tend to overlap each other if the end plates are not sturdy enough. That is why I made them from 10mm thick acrylic plates. When the coil was ready, both end plates were glued together at the perimeter to hold the coil permanently.
Maybe there are some other and easier ways how to do this?
Thanks,
Jetijs

[jeff_behary]

Pancakes

Hi Jeff
Great thread and much of valuable info and pictures here, thank you

I am also interested in these pancake coils and high frequency disruptive discharges. I have a little experience, but nothing compared to yours. For now I would like to build a big HV capacitor with adjustable capacity. I was thinking of using 250x250x1mm stainless steel plates with 3mm thick glass sheets between them. A total of 30 plates should give about 0.04uF of capacity. For the HV source I will use a 12kV 30mA supply. I think that 3mm thick glass plate should do fine at those voltages. The plates will be put in a big acrylic box with a plastic sliding mechanism so that I can slide the plates apart from each other and thus change the capacity. When the plates will be installed, I will fill the box with transformer oil to fill all the remaining air gaps. Can you maybe give me some advices or suggestions? I have never built a HV capacitor before, maybe there are better materials that are easy to get and to work with? Thank you!
Good luck!
Jetijs


Edit:

Here are two pancake coils we made recently. They are about 130mm in diameter and the wire used is 0.9mm. I am not sure about the turn count as I have not counted them yet, but both coils have the same wire length. One coil is the other coils mirror image. We will use these to play around with wireless electricity. The primaries are also wount so that they are a mirror image of each other.



I must say that it is hard to wind these coils if the diameter gets bigger because the windings tend to overlap each other if the end plates are not sturdy enough. That is why I made them from 10mm thick acrylic plates. When the coil was ready, both end plates were glued together at the perimeter to hold the coil permanently.
Maybe there are some other and easier ways how to do this?
Thanks,
Jetijs

I built some Pancakes under acrylic, I was lucky to have 25mm -
The Turn Of The Century Electrotherapy Museum - Kinraide Reproductions - Flat Spiral Coils - Testing

But I fried them rather quickly. I tried to make some provisions for oil insulation:
The Turn Of The Century Electrotherapy Museum - Kinraide Reproductions - Flat Spiral with Matrix - Oil-Filled Kinraide Style Coil
But I fried them also, eventually.

How I fried them was like this - note the sparks turn-to-turn over various layers - the reasons were minute spots of air present.
http://www.electrotherapymuseum.com/Films/675.wmv

Here are two videos, before disaster:
http://www.electrotherapymuseum.com/Films/Acrylic.wmv
http://www.electrotherapymuseum.com/...icKinraide.wmv

To add paper between each layer is laborious, but it helps to avoid deadly cross-overs that might cause problems. At low power, you should be okay. The minute you see little sparks arcing over the surface, stop immediately and use less power or voltage. Then you should be okay.

The oil-filled coil worked, but the problem is there was not enough oil. Eventually the sparks jumped up to the surface of the acrylic and arced-over there. And once that was untensioned, the whole coil collapsed out of shape immediately! I think your ,9mm wire should work better than mine in this example because the voltage will not be so high. Should be a fun experiment!

Good luck. They do look nice!

PS - on the caps, if you have SS already okay, but if not try aluminum roof flashing or foil. It works good and is cheaper!

[Jetijs]

Hi Jeff
Thanks for the answer. Helps a LOT
I was wondering, what if we took a big copper plate and just laser cut a spiral into it? The laser beam leaves an about 0.3mm wide cut and can handle 1mm between cuts. Then we could slide some mica sheets into the cut slots and submerge it all under oil. This way we could make a large pancake coil without the trouble of winding them. I have access to a laser cutter, but the copper is not cheap so I would like to hear your thoughts about this idea.
Thank you
Jetijs

[lighty]

Then we could slide some mica sheets into the cut slots and submerge it all under oil.

It will be hell working with mica in that configuration. Why not use mylar?

[Jetijs]

Hi lighty
Yes, why not. I don't know much about dielectrics, I guess mylar would work just fine. I am more interested in advantages or disadvantages of the laser cut coil idea at this time. What are your thoughts about this?

[lighty]

I sugested mylar because it's easy to get, cheap and easy to work with. As for your idea to be honest I'm not sure if it would work properly or not. Considerable reactive component of pancake coil is capacitance between adjacent turns. With round wire you could calculate it to a certain degree but with laser cut plate one would have to take into account thickness of the plate and different geometry between turns to calculate proper capacitance. I mean capacitance could wary in respect to round wire windings but too much variance could prove counter-productive. Also if cut edges are sharp (and not round like with round wire) they could cause additional ionisation and perhaps dielectric breakthrough. I wonder what's Jeff's take on this one.

It is an original idea though!