"cavitation pump"

[rileydad48]

I'm sure by now we've all seen the Griggs "Hydrosonic pump", but has anyone tried to build one or has information on "How" to build a similar pump to heat water. ?? I would like to try a replication. I've done some searches and read
the patent, but nothing specific to the actual build.. Can anyone help??

Thanks Paul

[rileydad48]

[QUOTE=rileydad48;66374]I'm sure by now we've all seen the Griggs "Hydrosonic pump", but has anyone tried to build one or has information on "How" to build a similar pump to heat water. ?? I would like to try a replication. I've done some searches and read
the patent, but nothing specific to the actual build.. Can anyone help??

Thanks Paul[/QUOTE

Hi again...... I have decided on the design that I am going to build. After more research and lots of time on the computer, this is what I have come up with. I choose an 8" dia rotor, mainly cause I allready have the outside casing. A steel pipe with 1/4" thick walls and an 8" ID. I modified the basic pump design to make it a self pumper and I also changed the seal arrangement to try and simplify it's design ( no expensive seals or spring setup ). I'm not trying to get steam, just plenty of hot water to heat a house with. See what you think...

Thanks PaulWater Heater 4a.jpg

Water Drive Disc.jpg

[sigzidfit]

I saw a failed replication attempt at youtube once and I think the problem with that one was not enough pressure at the inlet. If it doesn't work and you're not connected to the water mains or the pressure is poor you might consider a pump for pressure in front of it.

[rickoff]

Reply to Paul:

Hi Paul,

Before you get too excited about replicating a Griggs hydrosonic unit for home heating purposes, consider this - especially if you would plan to use an electric motor to turn the pump:

Griggs formed a company, called Hydro Dynamics Inc, to develop and market his patent for the hydrosonic pump. The company did have plans to build and sell units for home heating installations, and in fact some units were so employed in the area surrounding the manufacturing facility and results were observed. The company has since abandoned their plans to sell home heating units, and have issued the following explanation concerning their hydrosonic pump, which is also called a Shockwave Power Reactor, or SPR:

"Thank you for your inquiry in regard to heating water and/or making steam. Our company no longer markets the device for these applications. Although the device is efficient, in most all water heating applications it is difficult to economically justify a device from a capital or operating point of view. The SPR is about 98% efficient from a shaft point of view and about 90% overall when coupled with a standard 92% efficiency motor, while standard boiler is about 87%, but gas or oil are generally 50% cheaper on a btu basis when compared to electricity, as electricity is an expensive and highly refined fuel when compared to gas, coal or oil. While electricity is competitive there are electrical resistance heaters that are much cheaper and approach 99% efficiency. When we heat fluids there generally has to be some mitigating factor to justify the premium in capital and operating cost. The system can heat water, but there are numerous competing technologies that can heat water and make steam that are much less capital intensive and often cheaper to operate. Because of this we ceased marketing home/residential heating systems and generic steam systems.

Douglas G. Mancosky, Ph.D
Director of Application Development
Hydro Dynamics, Inc"

[rileydad48]

Hi Paul,

Before you get too excited about replicating a Griggs hydrosonic unit for home heating purposes, consider this - especially if you would plan to use an electric motor to turn the pump:

Griggs formed a company, called Hydro Dynamics Inc, to develop and market his patent for the hydrosonic pump. The company did have plans to build and sell units for home heating installations, and in fact some units were so employed in the area surrounding the manufacturing facility and results were observed. The company has since abandoned their plans to sell home heating units, and have issued the following explanation concerning their hydrosonic pump, which is also called a Shockwave Power Reactor, or SPR:

"Thank you for your inquiry in regard to heating water and/or making steam. Our company no longer markets the device for these applications. Although the device is efficient, in most all water heating applications it is difficult to economically justify a device from a capital or operating point of view. The SPR is about 98% efficient from a shaft point of view and about 90% overall when coupled with a standard 92% efficiency motor, while standard boiler is about 87%, but gas or oil are generally 50% cheaper on a btu basis when compared to electricity, as electricity is an expensive and highly refined fuel when compared to gas, coal or oil. While electricity is competitive there are electrical resistance heaters that are much cheaper and approach 99% efficiency. When we heat fluids there generally has to be some mitigating factor to justify the premium in capital and operating cost. The system can heat water, but there are numerous competing technologies that can heat water and make steam that are much less capital intensive and often cheaper to operate. Because of this we ceased marketing home/residential heating systems and generic steam systems.

Douglas G. Mancosky, Ph.D
Director of Application Development
Hydro Dynamics, Inc"

Hi Rick...
Yes, I got the same "form email" from the company. I'll have to do some calculations and compair the two, but it's hard to justify my $400.00 natural
gas bills for each of the three coldest winter months. Even the lowest summer month bills are reaching $60.00 now, when they started out being less than $10.00 12 years ago. I don't see an end in sight.
I keep my house at a comfortable 72 degrees all year long. The electric bills in the summer months even with the AC, have never been more than
$100.00 during the warmest months .
My thinking is that if the system is set up correctly, heating water for say a 50 to 75 gallon storage tank at 180 degrees, and only kicks in when the temperature drops below 110 degress, it's got to be cheaper than using natural gas. (I could be wrong ) And could be considerably cheaper in the future.
I tried a couple different types of electric space heaters for the bedrooms ( of which I have 4) and they worked pretty well to suppliment the furnace.
The forced air versions are a bit noisy and the radiant type seem to take a long time before you can feel any difference, so those we left on almost constantly. Even with running the radiant heaters all winter, the electric bills went up maybe 30.00 a month, and the gas bills were almost unchanged. ( go figure)

I have never seen, or ever heard of, a Griggs residental heating system and I have family that live close to Rome, Georgia. It's almost as though he started out making commercial units. And I have a brother that works in the engineering department of Georgia Power. They are suppose to be testing Griggs' pump, for evaluation. He says they are very "closed mouth" about the results of the testing... !!!
Sorry to be long winded, so to conclude, I need to build it and test it to actually see if it will work for me. I've wasted a $1000.00 before and didn't have this much fun.. LOL

Rick, thanks for the input.. how's the "pipe dream" coming...???

Paul

[wings]

You can download for free New Energy Technologies magazine here:

New Energy Technologies magazine

the last numbers 2004 and 2005 contains lot of information about heat cavitation devices

in order to have cavitation the tangential speed must be over 60 m/sec.

[wrtner]

I'm sure by now we've all seen the Griggs "Hydrosonic pump", but has anyone tried to build one or has information on "How" to build a similar pump

I think you would be better going the route of the John Worrell Keely "Hydro-Vacuo" machine:
PowerPedia:John Keely - PESWiki

[rickoff]

Rick, thanks for the input.. how's the "pipe dream" coming...???

Paul

Hi Paul,

Read the info at these two links for the latest goings on in the Pipe Dream project:
http://www.energeticforum.com/66818-post296.html

http://www.energeticforum.com/66922-post298.html

If you do build this cavitation heater, you will want to explore the best method of turning it. A "Roto Verter," or Lindemann type motor modification, could save you considerable money on electric usage.

For home heating, though, I can't think of anything more economical than Lloyd's friction heater, except for the possibilities open to burning used engine and cooking oils in either a homemade burner or commercially available furnace. Automotive service shops, and quickie oil change franchises, regularly sell their used oil for just pennies a gallon to tanker truck operators who deliver the oil to a reprocessing plant. The service shop owners would be even happier if they could sell some of that oil for 10 cents a gallon more than they are getting now, and that would be some very cheap fuel for you - about 1/10 or less than the cost of heating oil, and far less than natural gas. You just need a way to pump the oil from the service shop holding tank into a tank or drums in the bed of your pickup truck, and to transfer that oil to your heating system tank at home. The used oil should be filtered as it is pumped, of course, but that is not an obstacle. Used engine oil, or used cooking oil for that matter, burns quite nicely and will give you all the heat you want. If you are interested, let me know and I will dig up some links that I have to commercial waste oil furnaces, and can also point you to plans for converting a hot water heater tank into an efficient waste oil burner that will easily cut your heating bills in half.

Best 2 U,

Rick

[rileydad48]

Hi Paul,

Read the info at these two links for the latest goings on in the Pipe Dream project:
http://www.energeticforum.com/66818-post296.html

http://www.energeticforum.com/66922-post298.html

If you do build this cavitation heater, you will want to explore the best method of turning it. A "Roto Verter," or Lindemann type motor modification, could save you considerable money on electric usage

Best 2 U,

Rick

Rick..
I'm more the mechanical type than the electronic type. After your reply,
I read some on the " Rotor Verter " That's were you run a 3 phase motor on
240 volt single phase current.?? Is this the same thing as a "solid state 3 phase converter " that you can buy..??? A 3 phase motor would be the way to go with the " Cavitation Pump".
I totally agree with you on the Llyod's "friction boiler" it would be by far the least expensive to opperate and could be made to self run if you use it for steam. I would do a Llyod's machine in a heart beat, if I could. The problem is, it really should be in a building or storage shed away from the house, and in my housing devlopement.. I can't have another shed. I don't feel comfortable with it in the garage. It is noisy and I'm pretty sure you will get some smoke with the machine. So this is why I looking for something for the basement.
Rick, I know you're busy with the move and the " pipe dream " I really do apperciate your input. You're a true asset to the forum.

Paul

[rickoff]

Reply to Paul:

Hi Paul,

Check out this pdf file on the Roto Verter: http://www.panaceauniversity.org/RV.pdf

Ash also has some good videos that explain the principles:
Rotoverter Energy saving method#

RV (RotoVerter) demo#


Rick

[wings]

the Otherpower.com Discussion Board || Making hot water with cavitations...

[sigzidfit]

Good Link wings!

The replication attempt documented there is at least partially functional (80% according to the posts). Notice however, that this machine has the inlet and outlet of the "reactor" REVERSED. If the patent is to be followed.

There is a pump providing some pressure, However it is on the outlet not the inlet as I'd suggest. I also would suggest comparing the performance with different pumps in this position. Maybe an automotive piece.

Other things missing in this attempt that appears in the original patent spec on water/space heating is a volume/pressure tank and maybe some valves.

This would be an excellent application of the RV as Rick suggests.

Peace
PJ

[rileydad48]

Good Link wings!

The replication attempt documented there is at least partially functional (80% according to the posts). Notice however, that this machine has the inlet and outlet of the "reactor" REVERSED. If the patent is to be followed.

There is a pump providing some pressure, However it is on the outlet not the inlet as I'd suggest. I also would suggest comparing the performance with different pumps in this position. Maybe an automotive piece.

Other things missing in this attempt that appears in the original patent spec on water/space heating is a volume/pressure tank and maybe some valves.

This would be an excellent application of the RV as Rick suggests.

Peace
PJ

PJ... I haven't looked at the 1993 patent. I've seen the 1999 patent and yes the replication is not at all like the newer patent shows. It's still rather impressive for a 4" rotor 2 7/8" long thou. Since the pump is not really a pump at all I don't think the inlet and the oulet matter. If you drill the bores straight in the rotor, I don't think direction of rotation matter, CW or CCW should work equally as well.. (I could be wrong) If the "water drive disc" in my design doesn't do the job, I think maybe a Tesla pump would work out in this application.?? Running off the shaft of the "cavitaion pump" ,turned by the same motor.

Rick... I went back to the Hydro Dynamics, Inc. web sight once again and looked closer at the "product pictures" page, some of there units are cappable of 400 degree heat and 300 PSI. A Tesla motor, big enough using that much pressure and heat, should be able to sustain the pump. I know the electric motors they show in the picture look huge, but a medium size (12" rotor) Telsa motor is supposed to be capable of plenty of HP.

got ya thinking now....

Paul

[sigzidfit]

rileydad48,

I was thinking more in terms of direction of flow and pressure differentials rather than rotation of the shaft. Yes you are correct it isn't a pump. Thus the need for added pressure. (Hint: The boiling point [i.e. amout of heat it will hold] of water varies with pressure. lower at low pressure higher at high pressure)

Speaking of Tesla disc turbines, I believe he saw them ultimately as heat engines. Discs with dimples might cavitate.

While I have no first hand knowledge of SPR's running in the field, I'm pretty sure that in the oil patch they use them for spot heating of water.

Don't forget to investigate the Frenette and Perkins devices for clues, they we're similar and worked by the same principle.

$0.02

Peace
PJ

[rileydad48]

rileydad48

Speaking of Tesla disc turbines, I believe he saw them ultimately as heat engines. Discs with dimples might cavitate.


$0.02

Peace
PJ

PJ..

After reading about Tesla's motors and pumps and discussing it on the forum in the "Friction heater" thread, I wondered about why you couldn't reverse the effects of the turbine. The working turbine he set up at a steam plant used 300 degree heat @ 125 Psi. After going thru the turbine
the resulting pressure was almost 0 or one atmosphere and the temperature
was less than half of what entered. I realize that when the temperature is reduced in steam, the pressure will also be reduced, but I wondered how you could reverse the process. Maybe the dimples in the discs might be one way to do that.. now you got me thinking... It should be a new thread.. I've got my hands full right now, I really want to get this pump off the drawing board and in the lathe. I should be ready to start turning pretty soon. Got the bearings, the seals and a big chuck of aluminum. Need some steel and a shaft and I'll be ready to go.

Too much to think about and too little brain power... where's the other 90%
when you need it.. LOL

Paul