The American Ruling Class

[Nadda]

The jungle like everything else will forever grow until it is killed. Climate does that job all the time. Desserts are empty because nothing can live without water. The dry heat kills everything before it has a chance to grow. Put water in a desert...voila vegas appears. Provide the means and they will be consumed. Access to oil provided machinery which provided food which exploded the population.

[Nadda]

I have a question about gold, I know it has always been valuable but in todays world if currency became worthless and it were a barter society would it even be worth the investment, how would anyone know the purity, heck ive seen brass that looks as good as gold. I've never even seen gold, so just curious about that. Thanks

Also do you think it would be more valuable than guns, electronics, medicine ect?

[aljhoa]

Religious War Continues
Who is provoking it?

While these idiots in the UK, Germany, USA, Ireland, the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, France, England [United Kingdom] can leave Christianity, Judaism, Sikhism, atheism, Hinduism and Buddhism and "revert" to Islam without any severe consequences if you are a Muslim and leave Islam you are marked for death.
Muslim apostate to Christianity beheaded in Tunisia for leaving Islam - Arab Spring - YouTube

Al

[peakprodk]

Vote for Release of Free Energy

We need your vote now!

World Peace, Free Energy and Personal Freedom

[rickoff]

I have a question about gold, I know it has always been valuable but in todays world if currency became worthless and it were a barter society would it even be worth the investment, how would anyone know the purity, heck ive seen brass that looks as good as gold. I've never even seen gold, so just curious about that. Thanks

Also do you think it would be more valuable than guns, electronics, medicine ect?

To answer your question, first we must understand that all currencies found on this planet, other than coinage, are already totally worthless because they are not backed by anything of real value. The only reason that US currency, Federal Reserve Notes or FRN's, are said to have value is because they can be used to pay debts or buy goods and services, but the only reason why that is so is because FRN's are customarily accepted by the US population, and by other nations. We can look up the price of gold in US dollars and find that it is currently listed at about $1,600 per ounce. Gold was valued at around $32 an ounce back when Americans were told that they had to turn over all their gold to the Federal Reserve in exchange for FRN's. Does that mean that gold is worth so much more now than it was back then? No, the value of gold is a constant, in terms of what goods one can buy with it. When gold was $32 an ounce, one could buy a fine men's suit with one ounce, and that ounce will buy the same fine suit at today's escalated price. So the gold has not really risen in value, but rather it is the dollar that has actually dropped in perceived value against the gold.

We will never have a world where some form of universally accepted currency does not exist, as the banksters will make sure of that, but currencies are definitely becoming more scarce, and coins and paper currency will eventually give way to all-electronic transactions.

For barter, gold does have value, but during a chaotic situation not many people would be interested in trading their food stores, medicine, gasoline, weapons, or ammo for an ounce of gold, so those who hoard gold would likely be sorry they made that decision. And don't forget that, as mentioned above, US citizens could once again be told to turn over all their gold to the Federal Reserve in exchange for worthless FRN's. Those who did not comply would be rounded up and imprisoned, and could forfeit all of their gold holdings, and pay a fine to boot, without any remuneration. And don't think that our federal "government" has no plans for doing this again.

[dutchdivco]

Gold

YES, Gold CAN have 'uses'; as a 'hedge' against inflation, for the reason Rickoff explained; the 'value' of Gold is 'constant', it is the value of currencies which fluctuates. So, with inflation, the 'value' of Gold doesn't change, but the 'conversion rate' or value of a dollar in relation to an ounce of gold, DOES change.
From my (admittedly) limited understanding of economics, it seems we MUST at some point, experience a period of (perhaps) massive inflation, or hyper-inflation. The U.S has been using credit, thru FED policies, etc. to, in effect, 'print' massive amounts of dollars. Supply and demand says that the MORE you have of something, the less each unit is worth.More $'s in 'circulation', the less each one is worth, hence 'inflation' (of the # of $'s it takes to buy something).
Normally, (I THINK) the interest rate SHOULD be going up, but the FED has 'artificially' kept the interest rate low, and I THINK this is whats been 'artificially' keeping the otherwise 'natural' inflation from occuring. But, the FED can't do this forever; sooner or later its GOT to allow interest rates to rise, and inflation will rear its ugly head. (I THINK, but again, I'm no 'expert' on this stuff.)
If you think 'They", ( The 'Powers that Be', The 'American Ruling Class', The U.S. and other Governments, whoever ) will be able to somehow keep everything from sliding off a cliff, then 'Protecting' your aquired wealth, (from inflation) by having at least some of your 'savings' in Gold, MIGHT be 'prudent'. This is assuming you HAVE such wealth, currently in the formof currency; bank deposits, 401k or ira, etc.
However, if you think they are going to 'loose it', and the whole financial system in going to slideoff a cliff, and there will be a period of either hyper-inflation or complete collapse of the financial system, where ALL forms of ALL currency become worthless, then Gold is probably NOT the way to go; you are better off with material things which will ALWAYS have value; Food, Tools, Guns and ammo, items you can use and barter.
And, even as a 'hedge' against inflation, such investments are not a BAD idea, particularly if you don't have a large 'surplus' of savings. If your $100 TODAY will buy you a skillsaw AND a saber saw, and a year from now 'the same' $100 will only buy you ONE of these tools, obviously you are better off buying these tools NOW, rather than putting your $ in a savings account.
So each has to look, firstly, at there own situation, and secondly at what they think is going to happen. GOLD isn't necesarily for everyone, and i certainly wouldn't deprive myself of needed necesities TODAY, in order to put away Gold for tommorow. Anyway, thats my take,...Jim

[dutchdivco]

Actually

The jungle like everything else will forever grow until it is killed. Climate does that job all the time. Desserts are empty because nothing can live without water. The dry heat kills everything before it has a chance to grow. Put water in a desert...voila vegas appears. Provide the means and they will be consumed. Access to oil provided machinery which provided food which exploded the population.

There is quite a bit of 'life', in the desert, because, as the guy in 'Jurrasic Park' said, "Life,....Finds a way". And that about the only 'optimistic' statement you'll get out of me!

It 'started' long before access to oil; it started, literally at the 'dawning' of civilisation; when MAN 'decided' to STOP being 'Hunter/gatherers, and to (instead) settle on 1 piece of property, 'permanently'. Which is actually how Archeologists define 'Civilisation'.

Everything else devolves from that one decision, and that one initial and substantial change in 'lifestyle', about 10,000 years ago. OOPS! WHO KNEW! Jim

[Nadda]

Thanks guys for the insight relating to gold.

The population has doubled in the last 90 years. World Wide. 3 Billion people born in 90 years. That has never happened in the history of civilization...until oil went mainstream.
Better medicine was a big factor but not the biggest. Food supply will double any population. Ever feed stray cats? If you do they'll take over the neighborhood, literally lol. Google had a really great population chart program online but I cant find it again, looks like they changed it all up. The trend was staggering. For centuries the population growth rate was maintained until the oil boom.

...I think it was 90, ...may have been 60, i cant remember now.

There is quite a bit of 'life', in the desert, because, as the guy in 'Jurrasic Park' said, "Life,....Finds a way". And that about the only 'optimistic' statement you'll get out of me!

lol oh i agree, I was just making the point that everything to a degree is at the mercy of the climate. The climate sets boundaries. Which is why you typically dont see jungles in the dessert. Jungles can only expand to the furthest boundaries that the climate and enviroment allow. Right now Earth is the boundary for humans. We will and have expanded to cover every single corner of the planet. Space is too deadly for us to expand there. Like the jungle we are contained by obstacles bigger than us.

[aljhoa]

“I haven't left my house in days.
I watch the news channels incessantly.
All the news stories are about the election;
all the commercials are Viagra and Cialis.

Election, erection, election, erection!

Either way we're screwed!”

Bette Midler Quotes (Author of Saga of Baby Divine)


Al

[rickoff]

If your $100 TODAY will buy you a skillsaw AND a saber saw, and a year from now 'the same' $100 will only buy you ONE of these tools, obviously you are better off buying these tools NOW, rather than putting your $ in a savings account.

That's good advice, Jim, except for the fact that if we do have the economic meltdown which now nearly seems inevitable, any power tools will be useless unless the owner has the ability to produce his own power. For most people, that will not be the case, and so in preparing for hard times each of us should carefully take stock of what we have, and what we will need, in the way of hand tools, fasteners, glues, lubricants, etc. A lot of this stuff (saws, planes, auger bits, files, chisels, screwdrivers, and whatnot) can be picked up on the cheap at garage sales, being sold by people who think these are outdated and won't ever be needed. And it wouldn't hurt at all to grab extras at these sales. While you may not need two or more of the same item, these items could be priceless when it comes to an exchange for other items you may need.

[rickoff]

Ron Paul has confirmed that after 30 years of fighting for liberty in Washington, his time in Congress is coming to an end. Before leaving, though, it is his aim to ensure that his Audit The Fed bill, H.R. 459, passes in the House of Representatives, and that the Senate follows this up appropriately with passage of S.202. A House vote on Audit The Fed is scheduled for July, so now is the time to turn up the heat on your elected representatives. If you haven't already done so, please take a moment to go to Campaign For Liberty's website and sign the petition found there, which will be forwarded to your representatives. Fully auditing the Fed is a vital first step towards ending the Fed.

[rickoff]

In the latest turn of events in the Barry eligibility saga, a Florida case has been brought by Michael Voeltz, a registered Florida Democrat, to prevent Barry from being listed on Florida's presidential election ballot. The judge in this case, Terry Lewis, heard case arguments made by both sides on May 31.

Attorney Larry Klayman, representing Voeltz, argued that the term "natural born citizen," as stated in the Constitution as a presidential eligibility requirement, was defined by the US Supreme court in the 1875 Minor vs Happersett case as being a child born in the United States of America to parents who were both US citizens, and that Barry fails that test. Lewis already noted, at the May 31 hearing, that Barry's lawyers failed to cite anything that would counter that conclusion, so the case moves forward to the next phase.

Klayman has said that, unlike other Obama eligibility cases, this case “likely will go the distance” because of the strength of Florida law, which provides voters with the right to challenge a candidate’s eligibility. “The judge must make a decision based on eligibility,” Klayman explained. “He can’t sidestep it as judges in other states have attempted to do.”

Judge Lewis has scheduled a hearing for Monday at 9 am, at the Leon County Courthouse in Tallahassee, to hear the Barry team’s motion to dismiss the case and determine whether it should go forward with discovery. If discovery is granted by Lewis, then documentation proving (or alleging) Barry's eligibility will have to be provided to the court and to the plaintiff. Barry's team certainly won't want to have to submit Barry's forged birth certificate into evidence, as sheriff Joe Arpaio and Cold Case Posse lead investigator Mike Zullo have already filed affidavits ahead of the hearing which support the complaint’s charge that there is evidence Obama is constitutionally ineligible for the White House and, therefore, original documentation is needed to determine whether he should be on the ballot.

I think we can safely assume that Barry's defense team will pull out all stops to have this case dismissed, but in failing to do so will attempt to have the case moved to the federal court system, which has so far dismissed all other eligibility cases without hearing evidence or allowing discovery. Pressure will certainly be brought upon Lewis to dismiss or defer the case, and it will be interesting to see how he reacts.

Florida law enables voters to challenge the nomination of a candidate on the basis of eligibility, and the complaint asserts that because state officials have sworn an oath to “support, protect, and defend” the Florida and U.S. constitutions, they are “duty bound to uphold the eligibility requirements.”

[dutchdivco]

Now, Rick

I was trying to make a 'simple' analogy, to explain my (perhaps) simplistic understanding of 'inflation'. Many is the time I've heard someone say "Imagine if you had a time machine! You could go back and buy "X" (something) back when it was cheap, and make yourself rich!" A good part ofthat is due to 'inflation'; 'things' just cost more, in terms of the $ it takes to buy them, than they did 10, 20, or 50 years ago.
I have read that inflation is like a 'hidden tax', although the full 'argument', or logic, escapes me, but apperently the Gov't benefits from inflation, and as long as it isn't 'too' rapid, the 'people' don't mind.
In the end, its all just #'s.
Yes, HAND tools, and the skill to know how to use them, Power tools, if and to the extent that you have developed alternative sources for electricity of fuel, such as "Make Diesel from Plastic" thread describes, etc.
Each has to research 'it', and do some serious thinking. What do you think is the most likely scenario, what are 'alternative' scenarios, and how much of my resources do I want to put into 'preparing' for it.Jim

[rickoff]

... apparently the Gov't benefits from inflation, and as long as it isn't too rapid, the 'people' don't mind.

It would be true that our so-called "government" would greatly benefit from inflation if they could swap cheaply obtained gold for greatly devalued currency, and then use that currency to pay off debts, but where would they get the gold to do that? Does anyone believe that this nation still has gold reserves at Fort Knox, and if so, that those reserves are still owned by the people of the United States of America?

Yes, HAND tools, and the skill to know how to use them, Power tools, if and to the extent that you have developed alternative sources for electricity of fuel, such as "Make Diesel from Plastic" thread describes, etc. Each has to research 'it', and do some serious thinking. What do you think is the most likely scenario, what are 'alternative' scenarios, and how much of my resources do I want to put into 'preparing' for it. Jim

Unless one has the wherewithall to independently produce their own electricity in sufficient supply to power their household needs and power tools, investing in power tools doesn't make much sense unless you are currently in the process of building or expanding your own home, or are a professional carpenter, mechanic, or machinist, and can realize a short term payback on such investments.

Few people realize how overly dependent they have become on their electric and electronic gadgetry, and unless they have experienced an extended power outage during harsh weather conditions, aren't likely to be prepared to handle a situation lasting more than a day or two. In such a situation, those who can afford it will head for Home Depot or Lowes to buy a portable generator, and obtain enough gas to run the generator for a few days, expecting that the power will soon be restored. Those who cannot afford such a solution will tough it out at home until they can't stand the cold any longer, and will then head to a public shelter until power is restored. That's scenario #1.

In scenario #2, the power outage is caused by some factor such as an extreme weather condition, a very powerful solar flare, or an act of sabotage. In this scenario, the power grid would be down for an extended period of time - perhaps several weeks, and the region where this occurs would be crippled in many ways. Schools and workplaces would cease operations, as would stores, gas stations, food markets, etc. Those who had no way to survive on their own would most likely have to depend on their state and/or federal authorities to provide long term food, water and shelter. We saw how well those authorities were able to handle such a situation in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

In a worst-case scenario #3, the power outage would be caused by some horrific event affecting widespread regions of the U.S., and would effectively end life as we know it, leaving the vast majority of the U.S. population with no means of surviving on their own. This would quickly lead to utter chaos, and pilfering of whatever scant food and other supplies could be found by roaming crowds prepared to beat, maim, torture, and kill if necessary, to ensure their survival for as long as possible, which for most people probably wouldn't be for more than a few days. The cities would be the worst place to be in such a situation, as would the city suburbs and countryside that is close to those cities.

I won't speculate upon what scenario I think is the most likely one to occur, but I will say that for my own peace of mind I will hope for the best while actively preparing for the worst.

[dutchdivco]

Yes

" I will say that for my own peace of mind I will hope for the best while actively preparing for the worst."
That is the underlieing 'mindset', and Joni Mitchell said it;" Don't it always seem to pass, that you don't know what you've got, till its gone?"

10 years ago, I didn't have a computer, or the I-net, (and swore I never would!) Obviously, I didn't stick with that! Several times, I have had 'puter 'glitches' etc. and have had to go without for several days, and am amazed at how 'dependent' I have become.
When not only the light switches don't work, but calls to 911 go unanswered, its going to get REAL 'freaky', real quick!

As one example; looking to Solar power, as an alternative; without solar panels, such a system is GREAT, 'short term', but I haven't heard of too many panels that don't loose efficiency over time, or eventually need replacing; fine as long as there is a manufacturing and distribution system, and a way to 'aquire' (pay for) replacements. Making your own is theoretically possible, but without electricity and machinery to make the panels,...?

Even in a scenario where the power grid was out for say, 2 weeks, with 'rolling' blackouts for some time after; MOST people are currently existing in a 'cashless' world. So, even if the financial system doesn't run off a cliff, (which is quite an assumption at this point!) and assuming the Grocery store is able to be 'open for business', despite having to pry the electric doors open, and despite all the refrigerated food will spoil, how are they going to handle 'debit cards' without electricity? Post Catrina New orleans, Bagdad after the invasion, there are many examples to draw 'lessons' from, in 'Preparing for the worst'.

I would say one of the first, and 'easiest' preparations; if you or anyone you care about is 'Dependent' on Rx. medications, either to stay alive or functional, really need to consider a little 'stockpiling', here. Insurance Co.'s normally will only pay for a 1 month supply. So, have a conversation with your Dr., reminding them the people who died in the Astrodome were ones who ran out of their meds; Catrina hit just before the end of the month, and they were waiting for their (largely) Gov't checks, before re-filling their Rx.'s. Ask your Dr. to write 2 Rx; one for the Ins. Co. to pay for, and an 'extra' 1 month (at least) that you will pay for, 'out-of-pocket'. Only have to do it one month, then you can 'rotate' after that.

Another tip, that someone else postedon this thread, when we got on this subject previously, many sewer systems use pumps, to pump the s*it 'uphill', and these pumps run off electricity. So, without power, not only won't your drains drain, but stuff will (if you live 'downhill') back up into your abode, making life really unpleasent. So, in addition to a 'camp toilet', might be a good idea to research in advance how to cut-off your sewer lines from the main.

Anyway, there are LOTS of good survival-sites, that have lots of good info.

Back to our 'topic', I think the majority of the "American Ruling Class" may well be just as unprepared for the aforementioned catastrophe; Just like everyone else, many/most are probably in 'denial'. I KNOW some on this thread think the coming apocolypse is all PLANNED by the 'powers that be', and I think it is simply inevitable, and nothing anyone can do to stop it.

It MAY be 'the great eaqualiser', however. Much of what 'They' have aquired, wealth, power, etc. may be of little use to them,...'after'.

Not to say the 'poor' won't be 'hurt' the worst, however.Look at post Catrina; the people that had the resources, (for the most part) got the hell out of Dodge! The people who were 'stuck' in the 'shelter of last resort' and the chaos that followed, were MOSTLY people who, being dependent on the Gov't, had no way to leave. A cautionary tale, for sure.Jim