The American Ruling Class

[Matthew Jones]

Hi Matt, Seems to be a problem with some kind of "backroom" operation...

The fact is anytime you make a phone call or email international you are subject to NSA scrutiny. That is the jurisdiction of the NSA. You have always been subject to this. THey can monitor up to 15 minutes, or longer if key words are provided.

The crime came when they were tracking people in the United States without warrant. This was done from what I understand under executive orders. Or the TSP.
Any international tracking is fair game according to the charter on the NSA.

More than likely even if you are tracked no real person ever listens to the data unless you meet certain criteria for keywords.

At least that the way I understand it. I'm not making excuses for them though if they did break laws, I just think alot people don't understand what goes on there. Many misconceptions based on fiction.
No one agency in any country is capable of being the BIG BROTHER. It is simply impossible.

Matt

[rickoff]

Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."

What this means to me is that God does intend for us to honor whoever provides our roads, schools, police force, etc.

Hmmm, sorry but I don't see it that way. Simplified reasoning would conclude that Jesus meant precisely what he said, which was to give Caesar what was his (the coins bearing his image), and to give God what God expects (worship, prayer, etc.).

Do you think that the government is the great provider who provides all the things you mentioned? Not so. It is we, the taxpayers, who provide these things, and the purpose of the government is to serve the people by administering these and other items as we see fit. Giving honor should be reserved for those who have earned our respect, served our country with dignity, and upheld the ideals of the founding fathers. Corrupt politicians and government officials, and the big money bankers who control them, certainly do not deserve to be honored. You may remember that the only occurrence in the Bible of Jesus becoming enraged and acting violently was when he overturned the tables of the moneychangers. - Matthew 21:12 By actively seeking to expose and cast out the modern day moneychangers, are we not following in Christ's footsteps and learning from his example?

Rick

[Matthew Jones]

are we not following in Christ's footsteps and learning from his example

Yes we are!!

Matt

[future pather]

Hmmm, sorry but I don't see it that way. Simplified reasoning would conclude that Jesus meant precisely what he said, which was to give Caesar what was his (the coins bearing his image), and to give God what God expects (worship, prayer, etc.).

Do you think that the government is the great provider who provides all the things you mentioned? Not so. It is we, the taxpayers, who provide these things, and the purpose of the government is to serve the people by administering these and other items as we see fit. Giving honor should be reserved for those who have earned our respect, served our country with dignity, and upheld the ideals of the founding fathers. Corrupt politicians and government officials, and the big money bankers who control them, certainly do not deserve to be honored. You may remember that the only occurrence in the Bible of Jesus becoming enraged and acting violently was when he overturned the tables of the moneychangers. - Matthew 21:12 By actively seeking to expose and cast out the modern day moneychangers, are we not following in Christ's footsteps and learning from his example?

Rick

I fail to see the difference in your interpretation of the scripture and mine.

Since you asked, yes I do believe government is a great provider. Although I will agree with you in that it is also a representation of the people. Both of these statements are what God intended for the best. But humans fall short quite often. I just don't see that as a reason to throw out the system.

And you never seem to address the concept of sin in other populations. Your posts seem to imply that every tax payer is honorable (oh but exclude them damn rich ones and also those government officials), everyone who served in war is honorable, etc. Do you really think life is that simple? Have you walked a mile in the shoes of those you are condemning?

Investigations are fine. . . just the more you hate the rich I'm sure the more they will hate you, ya know? Learn all you want but perhaps do something positive like pray with the info rather than seethe in judgment and hatred.

If anyone is implying I am condemning them by posting scripture quotes, really I am not. It just rubs me the wrong way to see so much judgment and I like to offer another perspective.

[future pather]

It's probably not fair for me not to address Rick's point about Jesus overturning the money tables. . .

But I'm not looking for an argument either. I'll just state my opinion on it. .

First Jesus did not judge pieces in the cog. He ate with tax collectors and taught to have peace by obeying people in superior positions.

However there were definitely certain times when he taught that god's will and intent was not being honored by certain practices.

I believe the overturning of the tables was the only time he did so in a way that was not productive. (In other instances, he for example, healed on the Sabbath - something productive.)

When Jesus overturned the tables, it was right before his death. I believe his death is / can be (many interpretations to the Bible as it is deep on many levels) a metaphor for spiritual death, or lack of faith.

Jesus is supposed to represent God in human form, so imo Jesus did lose a lot of faith right before his "death." He even asked god right before he died why god had deserted him. If that is not a lack of faith I don't know what is.

So this means, yeah it is human nature to get fed up and at times even act out.

Thank god that Jesus was resurrected and his faith was restored

[future pather]

(To be really nit-picky Jesus did also curse a fig tree but that too was right before his death so I see it supporting my point.)

[rickoff]

I fail to see the difference in your interpretation of the scripture and mine.

That doesn't surprise me at all, Jessica.

"There are none so blind as those who cannot see." -Jonathan Swift

[h20power]

What I see mostly is a total lack of understanding just who the government is in the US. The preamble doesn't say, "I the President," nor "We the Congress or the Senate," it says, "We The People" are the government of the united states of America. Simply by miss naming or representatives all is lost. The secound biggest mistake I see very often is a miss understanding of what a Democracy and a Republic is and the difference between the two forms of government. A Democracy is majority rule a Republic is the rule of law. Example: In a Democracy if someone comitts a crime flees and is caught and all vote to hang him he dies. In a Republic all vote to hang this same individual and the sherif comes by says, "You can't hang him he has rights."

Now because this missiderstanding of what America, a Republic, is all is lost. Everyone has been fooled into beliving we are a Democracy when when in fact we are a Republic by the ruling class and I'd be willing to bet more than half of them also belive we are a Democracy. Why is this important, you might be asking? It is important as it goes to the core of how this nation is now falling. Because we nolonger understand just what America is anylonger we are going to lose her. What is being done right now on capital hill is nothing less than treason. If I am in the military and take my company over there and accept payment to defend their interest and order my company to do so promissing to also give them a share in the loot, we would all be tried and shot for treason, but they do it all the time on capital hill and nothing happens to them and they took the same oath of office. That is truly how America is now falling right now thru ignorance.

h2opower.

I fail to see the difference in your interpretation of the scripture and mine.

Since you asked, yes I do believe government is a great provider. Although I will agree with you in that it is also a representation of the people. Both of these statements are what God intended for the best. But humans fall short quite often. I just don't see that as a reason to throw out the system.

And you never seem to address the concept of sin in other populations. Your posts seem to imply that every tax payer is honorable (oh but exclude them damn rich ones and also those government officials), everyone who served in war is honorable, etc. Do you really think life is that simple? Have you walked a mile in the shoes of those you are condemning?

Investigations are fine. . . just the more you hate the rich I'm sure the more they will hate you, ya know? Learn all you want but perhaps do something positive like pray with the info rather than seethe in judgment and hatred.

If anyone is implying I am condemning them by posting scripture quotes, really I am not. It just rubs me the wrong way to see so much judgment and I like to offer another perspective.

[rickoff]

Since you asked, yes I do believe government is a great provider.

Thanks for confirming that. I thought so - just wanted to be sure.

humans fall short quite often. I just don't see that as a reason to throw out the system.

Neither I, nor anyone else here (to my knowledge) is suggesting that we throw out the system that the founding fathers of our country established and intended for us. Rather, we are saying that the system which our founding fathers intended for us has been hijacked, distorted, undermined, and circumvented by the powerful elite of the American Ruling Class, and that those who are responsible need to be thrown out if the intended system is to be restored.

Your posts seem to imply that every tax payer is honorable (oh but exclude them damn rich ones and also those government officials), everyone who served in war is honorable, etc. Do you really think life is that simple? Have you walked a mile in the shoes of those you are condemning?

I imply nothing - I simply present facts in a manner that should be clearly understood by any reasonable thinking reader. I never said, or implied that every taxpayer is honorable, although those who cheat on, or evade paying their tax (like Timothy Geithner, for example) while leaving the rest of us to pick up their fair share of the burden certainly are not honorable. Tax revolting could be honorable, however, if the purpose is to derail the ability of the powerful elite to use our taxes in promoting their unsavory agenda. Be aware that I also never said or implied that everyone who served in war is or was an honorable person, and it is ridiculous for you to draw that conclusion. I do feel, however, that those who have stood up against tyranny to defend our freedom and Constitutional rights should be honored. Would you disagree with that? If you would take the time to carefully read my posts, you would see that I have nothing against ethical individual wealth building or ethical government officials. I clearly make the distinction that I am talking about the unethical and corrupt individuals and groups within the American Ruling Class, and elsewhere in the world, whose purpose is to achieve total and absolute world domination. If you want to support and defend those individuals and groups then that is your right, and I will defend your freedom to have and make that choice. Just realize, though, that if what we are saying is correct, and if the rest of us choose as you have, then in the near future none of us will have that freedom to choose any longer.

Investigations are fine. . . just the more you hate the rich I'm sure the more they will hate you, ya know? Learn all you want but perhaps do something positive like pray with the info rather than seethe in judgment and hatred.

It seems that you are the one who is seething in judgment and hatred. I have not expressed any hatred towards anyone, and have not suggested that hatred is productive or necessary. Frankly, I have never met a person - rich or otherwise - whom I have felt hatred for. You, on the other hand, are attempting to promote the idea that anyone who disagrees with your point of view is a hate monger. I think that folks won't have much difficulty in seeing through your ploy. I believe that we are doing something positive by peacefully presenting truth and facts to others, and sharing our knowledge and findings on these subjects. It is fine to pray for change, and for deliverance from evil, but don't you think that God would be sorely disappointed in us if that is all we did, and we simply expected him to bring about the changes that are needed?

If anyone is implying I am condemning them by posting scripture quotes, really I am not. It just rubs me the wrong way to see so much judgment and I like to offer another perspective.

Again, we are only sharing important and reliable information here that all citizens of the world should be aware of. To do that, we should all strive to make statements of supportable fact, rather than vague suppositions and personal opinion. I don't see how you can surmise that anyone, other than yourself, is implying anything. As far as the quoting of scripture goes, I don't think that it should be used here in support of an argument, at least unless one is willing to accept the meaning of the written word literally. You have demonstrated that you choose to draw conclusions and interpretations as to what the written words might imply, from your viewpoint, rather than to accept the literal meaning, and thus your quotations become meaningless to the matter of discussion. Please take the time to carefully read what others post, and to examine what they have stated. If something that is stated appears to you to be wrong, then please research your rebuttal and present contrary statements that are factual and verifiable. If your presentation is accurate, and politely submitted, I am sure that others will be quick to admit of its veracity. If not, then you can probably expect more of the type of responses that you have been receiving.

No hard feelings, and best wishes to you,

Rick

[ANTIQUER]

What's the underlying reason we're in this situation?

Quote by Matthew Jones:

are we not following in Christ's footsteps and learning from his example

Well, some are, some are not, and that is the crux of the matter.

The events in Matthew 22:15-22 are explained in depth in Matthew Henry's commentaries, which you can find here. Matthew 22 Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible

For those who don't know of M. Henry he was a pastor/theologian in the U.S. in the early 1800's. His commentaries have have been a standard used in Christian theological courses for over 200 years.

This excerpt is the question and answer in a nutshell:

Now the question was, Whether it was lawful to pay these taxes voluntarily, or, Whether they should not insist upon the ancient liberty of their nation, and rather suffer themselves to be distrained upon? The ground of the doubt was, that they were Abraham's seed, and should not by consent be in bondage to any man, Jn. 8:33. God had given them a law, that they should not set a stranger over them. Did not that imply, that they were not to yield any willing subjection to any prince, state, or potentate, that was not of their own nation and religion? This was an old mistake, arising from that pride and that haughty spirit which bring destruction and a fall. Jeremiah, in his time, though he spoke in God's name, could not possibly beat them off it, nor persuade them to submit to the king of Babylon; and their obstinacy in that matter was then their ruin (Jer. 27:12, 13): and now again they stumbled at the same stone; and it was the very thing which, in a few years after, brought final destruction upon them by the Romans. They quite mistook the sense both of the precept and of the privilege, and, under colour of God's word, contended with his providence, when they should have kissed the rod, and accepted the punishment of their iniquity.

You can find further examples in I Peter 2:13, Romans 13:1-7 and Acts
5:34-39 has examples of 2 groups who rose up in armed rebellion against unjust authority and were destroyed. And of course the Romans finally destroyed the rebellious Judeans in A.D.70 as Henry mentions in the excerpt above.

We are actually in a better position than they were as they were ruled by Rome under an appointed dictator(Herod)who was not even a Judean. They had no civil rights. We, on the other hand, can vote for our officials. One big problem is too many people don't vote and many of those that do make a wrong choice,thus leading to the situation we are now in.

You may remember that the only occurrence in the Bible of Jesus becoming enraged and acting violently was when he overturned the tables of the moneychangers. - Matthew 21:12

Rick, there is no indication that Jesus was enraged, not in the punctuation or the words. Indeed, Mark said "he taught" the lesson of keeping the temple pure and free of commerce, a good example of teaching by word and deeds.

When Jesus overturned the tables, it was right before his death. I believe his death is / can be (many interpretations to the Bible as it is deep on many levels) a metaphor for spiritual death, or lack of faith.

Jessica, I don't know how anyone can get the interpretation of his death being a metaphor. That is only open to interpretation by those who do not understand the Bible. He was not forsaken as in obedience he was carrying out the course laid out by God in prophesy. His suffering on the cross was so great, more than any person before or since, and was so terrible that even God the Father could not bear to watch. He turned his face away, thus leading to Jesus' cry. This was also a fulfillment of prophecy. See Psalm 22:1-3 and Psalm 88:14-15.

Also, as the sacrificial lamb to atone for the sins of mankind forever, he had to physically die. See Matthew 27 Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible

As to your comment connecting the fig tree being cursed to Jesus' reply about rendering to Caesar or to God what each was entitled to I am at a loss as to the connection. Please explain if you care to.

Lastly, we are not all one other than the fact we all live on this planet hurtling through space. The Bible makes it abundantly clear that there are born-again Christians and everyone else.

I'm sure you know what Jesus said; a man "must be born again" (John 2:3). I Cor. 2:14 says "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him;neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.". Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Scofield comments " Flesh is the whole natural or unregenerated man, spirit, soul and body, as centered on self,prone to sin, and opposed to God (Romans 7:18). The regenerate man is not "in the sphere of the flesh, but is in the sphere of the spirit (Romans 8:9); but the flesh is still in him, and he may choose to walk "after the flesh" or "in the spirit" (I Cor. 3:1-4 : Gal. 5:16-17.)"

Christians are not perfect, but they are forgiven of sin by Jesus when they genuinely repent and ask for forgiveness and ask him to come live in their hearts. At that time their name is recorded in the book of life. That's why they face only judgment for their actions for him, after the rapture (I Thess. 4:16-18) and "in the air" (II Cor. 5:10), at which time they receive or lose rewards (crowns). The judgment for the unsaved dead is in Rev. 20:11-15. At that time the "books" are opened, including the "Book of Life", which contains the names of all Christians. If their name is not recorded there,no matter how "good" a life they have lived on earth, they are cast into the lake of fire, where the devil, the false prophet, and the beast are. (Rev. 20:10) This is the second or final death.

If any of the above conflicts with your beliefs or interpretations, you are, of course, entitled to them. I would only ask that you consider the above seriously in the spirit in which I give it; discussion for the purpose of enlightenment of all.

Any comments are, as usual, welcome.

Al

[rickoff]

Reply to Al:

Rick, there is no indication that Jesus was enraged, not in the punctuation or the words. Indeed, Mark said "he taught" the lesson of keeping the temple pure and free of commerce, a good example of teaching by word and deeds.

Perhaps I should have used the word "outraged" instead, but you'll have to admit that Jesus wasn't against kicking butt when the situation called for it. He was certainly outraged that the moneychangers were practicing usury in the temple, and certainly did resort to forcefully driving them out. He made a whip out of cords, and used it to drive the userers out while overturning their money tables and spilling their money out upon the floor. That's some rather strong action to take, but I think well deserved under the circumstances.
"And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;" - John 2:15
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...eyChangers.jpg

The quote at the beginning of your post was something I had stated in a previous post, and in full reads, "By actively seeking to expose and cast out the modern day moneychangers [the big money bankers and powerful elite], are we not following in Christ's footsteps and learning from his example?"

As I have said before, Al, I fully agree with you that we need to vote people into office who will take action to weaken and then drive out the userers who oppress us. I'm not suggesting that anyone actually take up a whip, or otherwise physically punish them, but rather that we can "crack the whip" of justice at them if we will all stand together and demand justice.

Best regards to you Al,

Rick

[h20power]

Now can everyone understand just how they are getting away with this? Through the duming down of America in which the vast majority don't understand the constitution or bill of rights. We were warned by our founding fathers that this would happen. What people don't understand is a Democracy is a transitional form of government. One that starts off with a lot of freedoms but ends up turning into a ollargarky or however it is spelled. The process is slow but now you are seeing it come to an end with this north American union. That is the main reason why they don't want our children saying the pledge to the flage anymore for in it it reminds us that we are a Republic. Try a test sample of your own, go out and ask people what type of government the US is you will find that most will say we are a Democracy. I have seen college profesors fined and fired for trying to teach the US Constitution to there students. Now if that doesn't send up any alarm flages I don't know what else will.

I know this sounds to simple to be the truth but it was not a simple task for them for they where learning as they went along. Take control of the edjucation system and replace it with a fully controled media and mass entertainment system and the marjority of people will never know the truth and will even fight for them to end America. When America falls it will go down with thunderous aplause from the brain washed citizens. Already if you take a look at the ownership of America you will see home after home bank owned just as Thomas Jefferson fortold.

Now that's the simple truth, though it is more complex than that.

h2opower.

[d3adp00l]

the simple version is this, unless a large number of people stop living in this system, then it will not change.

[future pather]

I guess last night was the deadline to come clean on offshore accounts. Many did.

Thousands of Tax Cheats Come Clean - ABC News

[future pather]

Al,

What I meant about the fig tree was it was a destructive act like turning over the tables, different from how Jesus usually behaved.

I'm not saying Jesus did not really die but I still see the period before his death as an example of a man losing his faith, thus the destructive acts of cursing the fig tree to never bear fruit again and knocking over the tables.

(Which is pretty much how I view a lot of stuff in this thread, an example of those losing faith, going towards spiritual death.)

Jessica