The American Ruling Class

[rickoff]

Fire?!?! Why not hire another 160,000 [IRS agents] to go after the 1%?

Hmmm, let's see.....

160,000 new agents at an annual salary and benefits package worth $50,000 amounts to 8 billion dollars. Where will the money come from to meet their pay? Are you supposing that these agents will somehow be able to rake in way more than 8 billion dollars if they "go after the 1%?" That's wishful thinking, and here's why:

Nearly all of those who are in the top 1% have nothing that the IRS can "go after." Their wealth was legitimately accumulated, and the taxes on that accumulated wealth has already been paid, as are the taxes on newly earned income. The wealthy have tax lawyers and accountants who make sure that their wealthy clients pay what they are legally required to pay the IRS, and not a penny more. These lawyers and accountants help their clients to take advantage of every possible tax saving advantage while legally conforming to the tax code. No taxpayer wants to pay the IRS any more than what they are legally required to pay, and the tax code is intentionally set up to give the wealthy elite the best tax breaks. For example, most income for the wealthy elite comes from long term investments which have a tax burden that is only about half what hourly wage earners pay on their earned income. With some wise tax-free investments thrown in, such as in municipal bonds, "green energy," etc., the wealthy can easily lower their actual tax burden to 15% or less. Take Mitt Romney as an example. Mitt paid a rate of about 15% on income of about $20 million last year. Thus, Mitt paid about $3 million in taxes. That's quite a chunk no matter how you look at it. So the real question is whether or not you think he paid enough. I know that doesn't seem fair to those of us who have worked hard all our lives to scrimp and save for a modest retirement, while we were paying twice as much taxes per dollar earned than Mitt, but the tax code makes it all perfectly legal. Since Mitt didn't violate the tax code, and merely used it to his advantage, like all other wealthy people do, there is nothing more that the IRS can "go after." So why waste $8 billion on pay for 160,000 new IRS agents? That makes no sense whatever. We need to think in more positive terms, like eliminating the unnecessary and corrupt IRS altogether.

[dutchdivco]

Rick,

Valid argument, as far as it goes. But don't we have to get more basic than that? Should 'the government' do anything? And if so, what? And, if its going to do 'something', how is it going to pay for it?

All well and good to say the Government shouldn't be doing this or that, but there is SOME 'constituancy' for everything the gov't. does. The people using Food stamps think the Gov't SHOULD be issueing food stamps, the people on Social Security don't want to give up their checks, etc. And no, you can't say 'its their $, cause they payed into it. YOU know its jusy a tax, and is paid right back out and not put aside for them to collect later, etc.

Anyway, the first issue is what SHOULD the Gov't. be doing, and HOW do we decide what the Gov't should be doing? And we can't even agree on that!

The system we have is obviously corrupt, because those with the $ can influence Congress to decide what the Gov't should and shouldn't be doing.
But, whats the alternative?

And THEN, there is deciding HOW what the gov't. does should be paid for? If not 'income' taxes, than what? And these ARE crucial questions! According to the Bible, when the Jews went down into Israel, it was land 'flowing with milk and honey'; in other words, very verdant land; fertile soil, lots of trees, etc.

Now its a Desert; WHY? Because a king at one point decided to tax the people, (in order to fund the Gov't.) by taxing them based on the # of trees on their property. Much easier to count trees, than to measure out square footage, particularly since many properties aren't squares or rectangles.

The result is people cut down trees, to lower their tax burden, and the verdant land 'flowing with milk and honey' became a desert. I don't know if this is a 'true' story, but it makes a valid point.

The Gov't has 2 main ways to try to influence the behavior of its citisens; laws and tax policies. Laws have severely limited abililty to influence peoples behavior; look at the Drug laws, howmany people still are arrested each year for drunk driving, etc. Hell, just drive around in the average city,and see how many people are 'violating' the law.

However, look at how peoples behavior is influenced by tax code; 'writing off' the interest on a mortagage influences many to buy a home, who wouldn't otherwise. Many wouldn't invest in some of these investments your listing, if it weren't for the tax advantage, etc.

Like you, I consider myself a Libertarian; I think the Gov't. should do as little as possible; only those things which only it can do, like Nat'l. defence. Why should I, who have been prudent enough to reside in a place that isn't in a flood zone, or in a (very dry) forest, have my tax dollars fund flood insurance, or disaster relief, for those idiots stupid enough to build their homes in such areas??? And the list goes on,....Anyway, this IS the discussion 'we' as a nation NEED to have, but we're not REALLY having it; not in Presidential campaigns, or in the squabling thats going on in Congress.

WHAT should the Federal Gov't be doing, and HOW should it fund those things? THAT is the question, but getting a 'concensus' answer just isn't going to happen. And so, we'll continue stumbling along, with the same F*cked up system, until it collapses. Jim

[aljhoa]

Why should I, who have been prudent enough to reside in a place that isn't in a flood zone, or in a (very dry) forest, have my tax dollars fund flood insurance, or disaster relief, for those idiots stupid enough to build their homes in such areas???

HAARP Weapon - History Channel Documentary! - YouTube

Al

[Mad Scientist]

What can and cannot the government do? I think it has been pretty well spelled out in something called the constitution. Of course how many people are even aware of what is has to say? Do our congress people even care? Is it still being taught in our schools or is it no longer deemed relevant?

people on Social Security don't want to give up their checks, etc. And no, you can't say 'its their $, cause they payed into it. YOU know its jusy a tax, and is paid right back out and not put aside for them to collect later, etc.

Oh but wasn’t it Al Gore how told us that all these fund were safely tucked away in a “lock box”? He wouldn’t’ lie to us would he?
But you are right it is a tax and was a tax from the day it was first proposed, of course it was sold to the sheeple as being a social service.

Most people are somewhat content to pay their taxes to the IRS because it funds all our government programs. Yet prior to the early 1900’s there was no income tax! So how did we as a country survive the first hundred years or so without an income tax? Yet we managed to fight wars, buy land, build infrastructure, plus we had a growing economy.

[rickoff]

Should 'the government' do anything? And if so, what? And, if its going to do 'something', how is it going to pay for it?

The government should do no more, and no less, than what is spelled out in our Constitution. As far as paying for what the government does is concerned, that's really quite simple. Just print up enough "greenbacks" to cover the budget. The federal government has always had the power to print their own "greenbacks," which are a fiat currency much like Federal Reserve notes, but which carry no interest and never need be "borrowed" or repaid. The cost of such printing is only relative to the amount of paper and ink used. It would cost the same to print a $10,000 bill as a $1 bill. No need to "borrow" Federal Reserve notes at interest, and no need to levy or collect any taxes whatsoever. MS is correct in that prior to the early 1900's our ancestors paid no income tax. They also paid no real estate tax, and were not saddled with the myriad of other taxes and fees which we now pay.

[Farmhand]

Nothing much will change in the big scheme of things until the grip of the Central
Banks on all countries government policies is broken. Not just the U.S.A. The reality is that all
countries with Central Banks controlled by the TPTB are in a similar boat. And
99 % of the governments are complicit in the scam.

None of the other stuff can be really fixed until the control of the government is
returned to the people. Even in Australia the Prime Minister has said many times
that she is not concerned about what the people think she should do, she will do what she
thinks is the right thing to do. But she lies anyway, and can't be trusted.

Until the policies of our governments are free of Central Bank control all
efforts are futile.

I don't see any president or politician ignoring a threat of death in the fashion
of Kennedy. We threaten them with words but the TPTB likely threaten them with death
and not idle threats either.

Just imagine becoming president then a few days into the term some nasty
guys show you a video of Kennedy's assassination from an angle not public.
Then proceed to lay out the plan for you to follow.

I can only imagine how elected folks would drop like flies if they ignored TPTB
and tried to change things for the good of the people.

Everything is second to ridding the world of the Central Banking nightmare scam,
the biggest scam that ever was and there will be no bigger in the future.

Still today a great percentage of the population is unaware of the Central
Banking problem, the "occupy" movement actually took focus of them, and put
it on the minions, the bottom feeders of the 1%, it's the 0.01 % That are the
real problem.

I think all countries are so far in the muck hole that people see Crap and think it's dirt.

There needs to be a massive educational effort to inform the people of the
reality of the situation. TV ads won't work, I vote for placards and flyers and
big signs by the side of the roads. With to the point text to shock people into
thinking, and with directions to more info..

I'm thinking of placing signs myself, I noticed a person some time ago put up a
sign about the Reserve Bank of Australia not being government controlled.

Most people are ignorant or don't care so we get what we make of things. As
is the natural order of things. No people from outer space will come to help us,
if it is to done it must be done by us. The reality of things is all upside down.

And it's all far too complicated for the average person to comprehend.

Cheers

[john_g]

Bradbury Pound

@Farmhand

I find it amazing the collusion by the mainstream media in not educating the public about the true nature/working of the world financial system. Here in the UK we are starting a campaign ‘Bring back the Bradbury pound’. Amazingly at the start of WW1, with a similar financial crisis the UK started to issue debt free money, and this was quickly squashed by the banking cartels – however the precedent has been set. All of our MPs and government refuse to correspond on this matter – why?

Also little known is the Bank of International Settlements (BIS)which is the kingpin of the whole corrupt system.

For more on the Bradbury, (please sign petition!):

Bring Back The Bradbury | UK Column

For more on BIS:

B.I.S. - ex-Nazi bank now the world central bank - The Bank for International Settlements, Basel, Switzerland

[aljhoa]

I find it amazing the collusion by the mainstream media in not educating the public about the true nature/working of the world financial system.

The all-emoting brain
People are most susceptible to propaganda
when already in a high state of tension.

The Science of Thought Control by Kathleen Taylor

Al

[dutchdivco]

Actually

I thought it was interesting that BOTH the 'occupy' movement, which most percieved as being left-leaning, and the Tea Party movement, which was seen as right leaning, were saying MANY of the same things, and were p*ssed OFF about many of the same things.

I wonder if the perception that the Teap party movement lost some momentum was in part because of the 'special treatment' they were getting from the IRS?

O.K., what does the Constitution say about building interstate highway system, and all the dams that were part of the electrification?

And just printing greenbcks as needed, doesn't make sense to me either; currency is like any commodity; the more units you have, the less each one is worth. So its like devaluing the currency, every time you print more.

Anyway, I don't think we can 'go-back', its WAY too late for that. We, collectively, have created so many complicated problems, for which there are no 'simple', an do-able, solutions. At a certain point, a building is so far gone, that the only realistic, sensible alternative is to demolish it and start over; THATS where we are. But, no one wants to put up with the mess, and chaos, and so we keep propping up this building, that should by rights have been demolished years ago.

And yes, we got in this situation because WE, collectively, were so focused on our little part of the world, and getting on with our lives, that we weren't paying attention, and 'allowed' THEM to steal/subvert democracy.

The 'strength' of Democracy depends on a well informed and engaged citisenry, and we have neither. Jim

[aljhoa]

And yes, we got in this situation because WE, collectively, were so focused on our little part of the world, and getting on with our lives, that we weren't paying attention, and 'allowed' THEM to steal/subvert democracy.

The 'strength' of Democracy depends on a well informed and engaged citisenry, and we have neither. Jim

Al

[Mad Scientist]

John g & Farmhand excellent points. When most people think about our monetary problems, if they think about it at all, they have been conditioned to only think in terms of what is happening in their country, and fail to see that this is a world wide problem. Most people take a certain amount of pride in the area that they grew up in and want to see it thrive. But for the TPTP patriotism, loyalty, love of country are a meaningless terms. For them it is all about gaining power and control. What happens to “their” country is irrelevant.

The only way to defeat these people is to go after their money system which is their source of power. Think about what Iceland did when it told the banking elite that the debt they had racked up was the bankers debit and not the peoples. Think what would happen if other countries were to follow Iceland’s example. Naturally the TPTP controlled MSM will not talk about that nor are you to even think about it.

[rickoff]

And just printing greenbcks as needed, doesn't make sense to me either; currency is like any commodity; the more units you have, the less each one is worth. So its like devaluing the currency, every time you print more.

Jim, do you really believe that malarkey? In order to devalue a currency, that currency must have a value to begin with. In other words, it must be backed by something of real value, like gold or silver. Federal Reserve Notes (FRN's) have no value whatsoever, because they aren't backed by anything of value. The people are told that three $1 FRN's will buy a loaf of bread, and that three $100 FRN's will feed a family of four for a week, but what makes those $100 FRN's worth any more than the $1 FRN's, or the $1 FRN's worth any less than the $100 FRN's? Both use the same paper and ink, and that is what represents their true value - the actual cost of printing them. So you see, Jim, when you use a fiat currency which has no actual value it really doesn't matter how many you print, because you can't lower the value of something which already has no value. Same goes for greenbacks. Greenbacks are valid US currency, and people would accept and use them in the same way they accept and use FRN's. The "government" could fire up the printing presses tomorrow and print all the greenbacks it needs to finance their 3 trillion budget, and there would then be no need for anyone to pay a penny in taxes. There does not need to be a Revenue stream collected by an IRS. Each and every year the budget would be "paid" for in the same way. If you don't think this would work, then explain why.

[jdodson]

Jim, do you really believe that malarkey? In order to devalue a currency, that currency must have a value to begin with. In other words, it must be backed by something of real value, like gold or silver. Federal Reserve Notes (FRN's) have no value whatsoever, because they aren't backed by anything. The people are told that three $1 FRN's will buy a loaf of bread, and that three $100 FRN's will feed a family of four for a week, but what makes those $100 FRN's worth any more than the $1 FRN's, or the $1 FRN's worth any less than the $100 FRN's? Both use the same paper and ink, and that is what represents their true value - the actual cost of printing them. So you see, Jim, when you use a fiat currency which has no actual value it really doesn't matter how many you print, because you can't lower the value of something which already has no value. Same goes for greenbacks. Greenbacks are valid US currency, and people would accept and use them in the same way they accept and use FRN's. The "government" could fire up the printing presses tomorrow and print all the greenbacks it needs to finance their 3 trillion budget, and there would then be no need for anyone to pay a penny in taxes. There does not need to be a Revenue stream collected by an IRS. Each and every year the budget would be "paid" for in the same way. If you don't think this would work, then explain why.

Economic circulation. Those paper bills are in circulation.

Imagine if it cost $10 to lift a brick.

If this country only had 5 people who were then printed and given a million dollars each...I would no longer charge $10 dollars to lift that brick.
I would now charge them $10,000 to lift that same brick.

$10 would no longer be worth anything because much more money is now in supply.

If I kept my price at $10 someone could make me build them a castle and I would only earn $10,000 while they still would have $990,000

[dutchdivco]

So, Rick

Sorry, are you saying these 'Greenbacks' would be 'backed' by Gold reserves?

Firstly, my understanding is the U.S. Government has no Gold reserves, so again your suggesting we go back to a situation which no longer exists.

Secondly, if the U.S. Gov't has 1 ton of gold. And they print $10,000. Each 'greenback' (dollar) is worth 1/10,000 of the value of a ton of gold. If they print 100,000 'greenbacks', each one is worth 1/100,000 of a tone of gold.

You have said it before, yourself; the 'value' of gold doesn't change, it is a 'constant', only the value of currencies, in relation to gold, changes.

Anyway, I agree with much of what you say, fed sucks, Irs sucks, etc. I just see no 'simple' answers, as you seem to keep suggesting, because such 'answers', in order to be relevent, have to be implemented, and I see no chance of that happening. In addition, they have to WORK.

Its like the 'Constitutionally Elected Gov't' you were talking about, before the last election. SOUNDED good, but nothing came of it.

I simply don't see any 'simple' answers, THAT WILL BE IMPLEMENTED, to resolve these 'complex' problems 'we' have created for ourselves.

And I DO strongly agree; 'we' humans look to our own back yard, when these 'problems' are effecting us all. Look at Brazil; the people there are as 'p*ssed off' as the people in the 'arab spring' uprisings, and the 'occupy wallstreet', and the Tea Party, and on and on.

People are getting very disatisfied with their 'elected' (or unelected) governments, and are starting to wake up to the fact that we are all being screwed.

Some may say its "TPTB" that have subverted Democracy, but even if so, WE 'allowed' them to subvert democracy; so in the end we are still doing this to ourselves! And, I still think much of this is inevitable, once humans decided to stop hunter/gathering, and settle in one location.Jim

[rickoff]

Economic circulation. Those paper bills are in circulation.

Imagine if it cost $10 to lift a brick.

If this country only had 5 people who were then printed and given a million dollars each...I would no longer charge $10 dollars to lift that brick.
I would now charge them $10,000 to lift that same brick.

$10 would no longer be worth anything because much more money is now in supply.

If I kept my price at $10 someone could make me build them a castle and I would only earn $10,000 while they still would have $990,000

Sorry, but that argument makes no sense. First of all, if there were only five people in this country then you would be one of those 5 and you would have received the same that they did - a million dollars. Therefore, everything stays relative. No need for you to charge more for your work, and probably no need to continue working.

Secondly, printed fiat currency is not money, so the idea that "much more money is now in supply" is incorrect. Real money, such as gold or silver coins, has had the same relative value since people began using them. For instance, one ounce of gold has always been able to purchase a fine men's suit.

We used to have "silver certificates," which could be redeemed for their face value in silver, so they were just as good as money. What we have now is worthless paper. Actually, your FRN's are worse than worthless because they are really just debt notes, which can be likened to IOU's.