Donald Smith Devices too good to be true

[Allcanadian]

@Farmhand

No evidence and all talk means it is all BS. Anyone can say stuff.
No evidence means nothing to offer but words and opinion.

Speaking of BS, I reviewed your last 10 or so posts and it would seem to me that you go from thread to thread criticizing others based on second hand if not false information. Now if you could show me all the devices you have built, the test equipiment, the data and all procedures I might be more inclined to believe something you have to say however until then I will have to assume, as you say, it is all just words. You see claims require proof and to date I have seen nothing from you in this respect so really you are no better or worse than the persons you criticize in my opinion.

I can be kind of funny that way because I don't require real proof of any kind only that what the person say's has value or makes sense to me personally. Now if it does make sense or has merit to me then I may follow through and try to prove it for myself. However my not sharing my results in no way implies something is not true, it simply means I don't want to share it with you. No offense but you seem to be very confused on this issue in my opinion.

AC

[Farmhand]

A perfect 90 degrees means there is no energy consumption on the input side. It does not implies anything on the output. You must be careful when making assumption.

Yes it does, if the phase is just off 90 degrees real power is consumed. it is a
transformer for goodness sake, if any power is output from the secondary it is
input at the primary.

Was it a perfect 90 degree phase shift ?

You must be careful when making assumptions.

So you tell me. Did Thane have a perfect unchanging 90 degree phase shift
between the primary current and the primary voltage ?

Tell me, did he ? And how do you know this to be true ?

And how do we know it was not fluctuating very slightly ?

Explain exactly how Thane determined he had the 90 degree phase shift and
that it was exactly 90 degrees and unchanging.

I'm not making assumptions I am asking questions and saying what is not logical.

You are the one making assumptions. If you know the facts tell it.

Answer the questions. Or admit you made assumptions. You assume a lot.

I assume nothing, that is why I ask for better proof.

Show us a perfect unchanging 90 degree phase shift with a load on the secondary.

Stop the talk and show us. After you answer the questions that is.

Cheers

[Farmhand]

@Farmhand


Speaking of BS, I reviewed your last 10 or so posts and it would seem to me that you go from thread to thread criticizing others based on second hand if not false information. Now if you could show me all the devices you have built, the test equipiment, the data and all procedures I might be more inclined to believe something you have to say however until then I will have to assume, as you say, it is all just words. You see claims require proof and to date I have seen nothing from you in this respect so really you are no better or worse than the persons you criticize in my opinion.

I can be kind of funny that way because I don't require real proof of any kind only that what the person say's has value or makes sense to me personally. Now if it does make sense or has merit to me then I may follow through and try to prove it for myself. However my not sharing my results in no way implies something is not true, it simply means I don't want to share it with you. No offense but you seem to be very confused on this issue in my opinion.

AC

I have made no claims of over unity. I am free to ask questions.

The onus of proof of claims is on the claimant.

You are entitled to your opinion. I don't care for it personally.

I think you confuse asking fair questions and defending my right to do so as criticism.

You say I am full of BS I say you are full of BS so we are even.

I've build plenty of things, just because you haven't seen them means absolutely nothing.

I have nothing i need to prove, I have made no claims of over 100% efficiency.

If you show me all the things you have built and all your equipment first.

Cheers

P.S. show me the instances of second hand false information and prove it to
be so and not given as my "opinion" and I will retract the statements. Simple.

..

[Allcanadian]

@Level

Just for interest's sake, here are the measurements Thane took in his demo video ( I am not saying it was proof of anything, just listing the numbers from the demo video):

I like Thanes video's because they make a person think, thinking is good. However I'm not sure I like his way of measuring things. I prefer to use a measured DC input which is converted to an AC signal through a converter of known or tested effeciency measured prior. Then this AC is run through the device and converted back to a measured DC output. This removes all the calculations and guess work in my opinion. DC in DC out, I mean it absolutely does not get any easier than that and errors are reduced to a minimum.

In fact I learned a great deal from what Thane was considering in my research, for instance a magnetic field cannot "flow" as a flow would imply a start and end which does fit well with the notion of closed lines of force, can a rubber band flow?, lol.. In fact science tells us the field either contracts or expands and has no imaginary lines of force because it is a "gradient" of force which follows the inverse square law. Many people also seem overly occupied with the concept of magnetic N and S poles which do not exist and are simply a form of notation.
In any case I found the magnetic field many people know from textbooks to be represented very differently in the field of physics and things began to make much more sense.

AC

[Farmhand]

Thane mentioned a 90 degree phase shift as being the ideal case. In his old BTT demo video with his less than ideal rigged up BTT transformer he measured the phase as being around 75 degrees. Based on the scope screen shot in the demo video, I estimated roughly around 72 or 73 degrees phase shift or so, so it seems Thane's estimate of 75 degrees was about right. I have attached the scope screen shot from Thane's old demo video. I agree with your earlier points however that it would have been a lot better if Thane had made his measurements at a load power level of at least several watts, as at the milliwatt load power level you are likely going to have a fairly low power factor at the primary anyway, and as you also previously mentioned, at lower load voltages and currents the margin of error is greater. Thane also wasn't using the best meter to measure the primary current, as the resolution was only 1 mA on the scale he was on, but he measuring a current in the very low mA range. In Thane's BTT patent application, Thane listed the data for a couple of examples with the load power at around 11W and 25W, and still showing (a claimed) very notable over unity. There was also some data provided by a third party, but in this case they didn't seem to include a power factor measurement as near as I could see, so I couldn't see how to evaluate that data since only the apparent power at the primary could be determined with the measurements provided.

At any rate Thane Heins doesn't seem to have been promoting his BTT concept for at least a couple of years now as far as I can gather, at least not publicly anyway, so there is probably not much point in dwelling on it...

Just for interest's sake, here are the measurements Thane took in his demo video ( I am not saying it was proof of anything, just listing the numbers from the demo video):

Primary:
V = 104.8V
I = 3mA
Phase angle = 75 degress
Power Factor = 0.259
Power In: 104.8 x 0.003 x 0.259 = 81.4 mW <====

Secondary:
V = 3.3V
R = 27 ohms
Power Out: 3.3V^2 / 27 = 403 mW <====

Efficiency based on the above measurements: 495% <====

If anyone is trying to reproduce, it probably would be a lot better for reducing the likelihood of measurement error if you can drive the load with at least a couple of watts.

That's not the demo I seen, the demo I seen he claimed thousands % OU.

Cheers

[Allcanadian]

@Farmhand

I've build plenty of things, just because you haven't seen them means absolutely nothing.

I would agree, which is why I commented when you said ...

No evidence and all talk means it is all BS. Anyone can say stuff.
No evidence means nothing to offer but words and opinion.

So by your own words your saying I should believe your all BS, I don't really believe that which is basically why I disagreed with you in the first place. Unless your saying you are ... but I would still disagree in principal.

My only point is that automatic denial of everything due to a lack of absolute proof seems an awful lot like a cat chasing it's tail because we will never make any real progress. This is probably why most of the people in science who actually make real progress are considered troublemakers, lol. I have no real concrete proof you even exist so should I deny you do and our conversation?, it just seems silly in my opinion in fact almost as silly as our nit-picking which is pointless.

AC

[Farmhand]

@Farmhand
Now if you could show me all the devices you have built, the test equipiment, the data and all procedures I might be more inclined to believe something you have to say however until then I will have to assume, as you say, it is all just words.
AC

I forgot the main point, AC I don't care if you believe what I say or not, there
are no winners or losers here the prize is the truth. If you are so convinced of
a device's abilities being over 100% efficient then why not build it and prove it ?

Anyway what is it you would like to see.

Acceleration of a generator rotor under load ?
Reduced input power when loaded with a steel core transformer ?
Reduced input power when loaded with an air core transformer ?
Battery voltage increasing under load ?

If you tell me the trick you want to see I'll tell you if I've already shown it or if I can show it.

Don't try to put assumed intent to my words, I don't automatically deny
everything. If something doesn't make sense I say so.

Cheers

[Allcanadian]

@level

Yeah, we have been discussing different ways to make power measurements and how measuring from a DC supply or battery terminals at the input andconverting the output to pure DC can simplify the power measurements. I also think it is a good idea to make power measurements a couple of different ways where possible and then compare results as a sor to of sanity check.

I made a neat Arduino based efficiency meter which works well. It has a nice GUI on my laptop displaying Input/Output Voltage and Current to calculate Power, Energy with a time base and the handy dandy efficiency meter reading from zero to 200%, lol. I was being overly optimistic when putting together the display guages but what the hell, optimistic is good.

Actually I was very surprised when calibrating the darn thing as voltage was within 20mA and my DIY hall effect current sensors were almost bang on. It's kind of amazing how much a person can do with almost nothing.

AC

[Farmhand]

@level


I made a neat Arduino based efficiency meter which works well. It has a nice GUI on my laptop displaying Input/Output Voltage and Current to calculate Power, Energy with a time base and the handy dandy efficiency meter reading from zero to 200%, lol. I was being overly optimistic when putting together the display guages but what the hell, optimistic is good.

Actually I was very surprised when calibrating the darn thing as voltage was within 20mA and my DIY hall effect current sensors were almost bang on. It's kind of amazing how much a person can do with almost nothing.

AC

Now that is interesting, and impressive, and guess what I believe you.
Going to 200% is a good idea. I would buy one of those. No joke.

Cheers

[Allcanadian]

@Farmhand

Now that is interesting, and impressive, and guess what I believe you.
Going to 200% is a good idea. I would buy one of those. No joke.

I'm going to open source the whole project when I'm done final testing and it should run about $60 in parts including the GUI for windows, 100A and 250v range. I'm still throwing around an auto-ranging function to try and get up to 1000v and still have decent resolution when I get the time.

You know I started this Efficiency Meter project because of something I'm sure we can both agree on which is the great extent of measurement error we see happening out there in OU land. I found it odd that in this day and age a simple and inexpensive way to read DC voltage, current, power, energy and efficiency all on the fly on one display simply did not exist. I think it will help solve a lot of the issues people are having with determining exactly what the facts are.

AC

[Allcanadian]

@level

Sounds pretty whiz bang. Would this take true RMS voltage and current readings on complex waveforms and what frequency can it measure up to, or is it for DC only?

My theory was that if I need to measure the waveforms and frequency then I should just use an oscilloscope which is the right tool for the job. However what I wanted was to simply display DC and only DC, input/output Voltage, Current, Power, Energy and Efficiency on the fly in an easy to read format such as large dial indicators plus digital readouts for precision on my laptop screen.
Now imagine your tuning a boost converter(aka joule thief) and as you tune you can clearly read all the values I described on the fly. Let me tell you once you use it you will never go back because it makes everything super simple, all the information is right there in front of us in real time.

AC

[Dave45]

I think some people are here to bury and lead away the direction of the progress, we have about ten pages of utter bs, when we find ou there will be no wondering about inputs and outputs we will know absolutely we are getting out more than we are putting in. (((good grief))))

Ya know we try to get ou and then loop the system, maybe we need to loop the system and then try for ou, and we also try to loop back to the secondary with our load, maybe we need to loop back to the source through caps(not direct) and back to the primary.

[T-1000]

In regards to power measurements for impulse driven circuits the mathematic formula is wrong. The correct one is P(rms) = (U * I ) / S^2 where S= T / t, T= repetition time, t = impulse width:
Видео ДОКЛАД на конференции 14.09.2011 - YouTube

In this video it was proven where mistake is and correct formula I mentioned already was made and tested..

P.S> There is also shown: motor generator (Adams approach method), electrical energy gain from hydrogen reaction, Pulse technology in mechanics. All that conference was between conventional physicists in Russia.
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?client=tmpg&depth=1&hl=tr&langpair=ru| en&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&u=http://www.micro-world.su/index.php/2010-12-22-11-45-44&usg=ALkJrhiPy8YG2zr3fq0usQ_TfrVK-s_tOQ
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[quantumuppercut]

... it is a
transformer for goodness sake, if any power is output from the secondary it is
input at the primary.

I'm not sure how anyone could find anomaly base on this thinking.

[Dave45]

Our understanding of how inductors work and how electrons flow in a circuit is severely flawed, just look at how electrons flow in this circuit.
Coil Induction & Wiring Diagrams - YouTube