Donald Smith Devices too good to be true

[a.king21]

Interesting discussion

Well, I see things differently.
That's why I attempted to get Kapanadze over to the West. I tried for a whole year. The b...y immigration bureaucrats totally did us in on that one.
Anyway back to Don Smith.

The most important detail he gave was that the output from his devices was less than a milliwatt.

Go figure.

That in my opinion is the key to solve the puzzle.

Re measurements on a neon trafo.
I would like some proper technical data on that one as my personal belief is that there is no industry standard, and each manufacturer calculates their input and output figures differently.

[level]

I would like some proper technical data on that one as my personal belief is that there is no industry standard, and each manufacturer calculates their input and output figures differently.

Hello a.king21. The output ratings on NST's are actually quite typically max open circuit output voltage and max output current, from what I have seen. The max current of an NST is typically limited by the secondary winding inductance. Of course when you connect a load to an NST it's output voltage will drop down from it's max open circuit rated output voltage. An example would be a 12V NST rated for an output of 3000V and 30mA. When it is connected to a typical load for that size NST, it's output voltage will probably be around 2000V and its output current will probably be around 10mA. Based on my own experiments with NST's, an NST of this size will probably be drawing around 25W to 30W to supply that 20W of output power however.

[citfta]

When I first started watching the Don Smith videos I was intrigued. At that time I was pretty new to the idea of OU so I was pretty easy to convince that something was happening.

Then I saw the video where Don clearly showed the label on the NST. And it showed the open voltage and the max current which would be the shorted current. Then he went on to explain that the NST was an OU device. I said to myself then this guy is mistaken about that, because I knew that is not the way you calculate output power.

Then I saw the video where he totally misused a chart from the ARRL handbook to try and claim you could change the frequency response of a transformer with some resistors. I knew for sure then he didn't know what he was talking about. I am a ham and I have spent many hours teaching other hams how to use the info in that book. Don most definitely had it wrong.

I still had a little faith that maybe he had accidentally stumbled onto something and just didn't know how to explain it well. But as time went on and no one was able to duplicate his claims I realized he either was a scam artist or just didn't understand what he was doing. I really think it was probably the latter.

This thread should have died a long time ago but it keeps coming to life as new people hear about Don and think he really had something. I am pretty sure next year those people will have given up and be gone to be replaced by new believers.

Respectfully,
Carroll

[lotec]

Don's apparent first over unity demonstration setup was the board with the one transmitting tesla coil, surrounded by other receiving tesla coils. Don Smith claimed that each of the receiving tesla coils would receive a duplicate of the power being transmitted by the transmitting tesla coil, giving a total output power that is over unity, but in tests I did with this setup, the power being applied to the transmitting tesla coil actually divides amongst the receiving tesla coil loads, as would be expected in conventional theory.

That makes sense, but did you ever compare the combined output of the copies against the amount of energy it takes to maintain the primary tank of the original. (probably easier said than done ) I understand what it means to be disheartened by results and not bother to do follow up testing.


Don claimed in one of his videos that a neon sign HV transformer (NST) was an over unity device in itself since if you multiply the output voltage and current ratings on the NST you get a power rating greater than the rated max input power consumption rating of the NST. This is clearly wrong however because the output voltage rating on an NST specifies the max open circuit output voltage for the NST, and the output current rating on the NST specifies the max short circuit current rating of the NST. You can't multiply these two values together. That doesn't make any sense and anyone with a basic understanding of electronics should realize that.

Point well taken.

Don also claimed in the Bonus video that you could connect the HV secondary output wires from an NST directly to the primary of a tesla coil to drive his 'simple over unity' setup, but again for anyone who understands about NST's and transformers in general, such a connection between the NST output and a tesla coil primary would look like very close to a short across the NST, and the NST would not be able to drive the tesla coil primary that way.

Would it still look like a short if the primary had sufficient Inductive inpedance at the operating frequency


Don also claimed that you can place a resistor across a transformer primary and change the frequency at its output. You could maybe lower the resonant frequency of a transformer primary a bit that way, but that does not appear to be what Don Smith was referring to when he spoke about this. Don Smith seemed to think that you could just apply different resistors across a transformer primary and change the frequency of the waveform at the output. In the general case, that will just not work. If Don did mean this for some special case, it was not clear at all to me what that was.

Another Don Smith special , to be sure. But did anyone actually try this and show this to be false or did it just sound so outrages that it was ruled out on the spot.


Whether Don Smith really made some over unity devices I don't know, but some of the claims Don Smith made certainly don't make sense or don't stand up to basic testing. Don Smith did seem like a very sincere guy, so I think that is why some people may find it hard to imagine that the things he was saying may be wrong, but certainly the four items I mention above are just plain wrong, or at best very questionable for one or two of them.

Then there is the issue of drawing up the sparks through the plates.

I take it that the concept that a standing quarter wave hotspot tuned for reflection at the first plate being able to produce an electrostatic copy of the original oscillating charges has been ruled out as well.

I understand that Don Smith made some pretty wild statements and alot of talented researchers invested time and energy into it.

I just wanted to be sure that the baby isnt being thrown out with the bath water here.

Regards
lotec

[boguslaw]

Sorry, guys but most if not all Don's statement were correct ...if you take them not directly ! Remember that he had some agenda watching what he said, so he was in kind of trouble situation like Steven Mark.
I believe the resistor trick work only in higher Mhz range and you have to use non-inductive resistor, but I cannot prove it , you should ask some old RF engineer.

[med.3012]

i think it's better to change the way of thinking about this device and try something different, i did some interesting test and i was able to charge a capacitor when the E-TBC was oscillating on Colpitts oscillator using 12v battery, L1/L2 was air coil transformer, even with this low voltage level this coil was able to radiate a huge electromagnetic flux, the SW radio still hear the E-TBC sound, the cap being charged , when i approached the voltage meter from L2 coil it show an increase in voltage ... ( i am still not sure about this specific test ).

the E-TBC is really interesting coil and i still seek help ....


Best regards

[a.king21]

The important point to remember is what he said in his penultimate vids.
The clue is correct air or earth grounding.
The big clue is in the neon sign trafo.
Don said time and time again to deaf ears that if you connect it conventionally it won't work. Time and time again. To deaf replicators ears.
If you leave it open circuit it's ou.
Benitez did it mechanically in his very first patent.

Go look.
Learn the laws of electrostatic induction
That's all folks.

[level]

1) That makes sense, but did you ever compare the combined output of the copies against the amount of energy it takes to maintain the primary tank of the original. (probably easier said than done ) I understand what it means to be disheartened by results and not bother to do follow up testing.

2) Would it still look like a short if the primary had sufficient Inductive inpedance at the operating frequency?

3) Another Don Smith special , to be sure. But did anyone actually try this and show this to be false or did it just sound so outrages that it was ruled out on the spot?

4) Then there is the issue of drawing up the sparks through the plates.
I take it that the concept that a standing quarter wave hotspot tuned for reflection at the first plate being able to produce an electrostatic copy of the original oscillating charges has been ruled out as well.
I understand that Don Smith made some pretty wild statements and alot of talented researchers invested time and energy into it.
I just wanted to be sure that the baby isnt being thrown out with the bath water here.

Hello lotec.

1) Of course I measured the output power on the loads of each of the receiver tesla coil loads to determine the total output power. There would be no way for me to say that the total output power was not more than the input power on the transmitter tesla coil if I didn't do proper power measurements.

2) Your question doesn't make sense. The input impedance to the primary of a tesla coil which is typically just a few turns, is very low impedance. That low impedance is very obviously going to load the NST right down, and its output voltage will drop very low. Typically what happens in that case is the NST just stops oscillating, and you could potentially burn out the NST driver circuitry as well, depending on the type of NST you have.

3) If you understand the basics of transformers and electronics in general, you should understand that placing a resistor across the primary of a transformer is not going to alter the frequency of the output. The transformer will output a frequency that is equal to the frequency of the waveform being applied to its primary. The one possible exception is what I already mentioned in my previous comment.

4) It is perfectly normal for high voltage to cause an arc to earth ground. It is also perfectly normal for AC to be able to 'pass through' two plates of a capacitor. Capacitors are used all the time in AC circuits to pass AC waveforms through them. For people who have even the most basic understanding of capacitors and AC and high voltage, they should realize that what Don Smith showed in his demonstration with the two metal plates and the high voltage arcing to ground was perfectly normal. There was nothing unusual about that at all. The power was coming from the high voltage driver unit.

[level]

The important point to remember is what he said in his penultimate vids.

Hello a.king21. I haven't completely ruled out Don Smith. His educational background was related to the petroleum industry, so it is not surprising that he might get technical details wrong relating to electronics, but that doesn't mean that he may not have had one or more devices that were over unity and he just hid some important details well. Don Smith remains a puzzle to me.

[lotec]

Hi Level

I hope my last post didnt come across as being confrontational.

Thanks for clearing up those points for me. I always wondered how the experiment with the sender and receiver coils played out. Thanks for the benefit of your experience.

Regards
lotec

[lotec]

The important point to remember is what he said in his penultimate vids.
The clue is correct air or earth grounding.
The big clue is in the neon sign trafo.
Don said time and time again to deaf ears that if you connect it conventionally it won't work. Time and time again. To deaf replicators ears.
If you leave it open circuit it's ou.
Benitez did it mechanically in his very first patent.

Go look.
Learn the laws of electrostatic induction
That's all folks.

Hi

I dont think Ive seen the penultimate videos but they sound good.

Lately Ive been interested in open circuit bipolar coils, elctrostatics, and what happens on one side of the bloch wall of the primary stays on that side.

Only if it is convenient and they are still up there could you post a link please. I had a look around and couldnt find them.

Regards
lotec

[a.king21]

Hi

I dont think Ive seen the penultimate videos but they sound good.

Lately Ive been interested in open circuit bipolar coils, elctrostatics, and what happens on one side of the bloch wall of the primary stays on that side.

Only if it is convenient and they are still up there could you post a link please. I had a look around and couldnt find them.

Regards
lotec

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmXyzxDoUFc

[lotec]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmXyzxDoUFc

Thanks for your help

[boguslaw]

Here he said more : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7GHqw7d1No

[boguslaw]

Don Smith : "generators don't make electricity"

Harry Perrigo : ""The device is a generator as truly as the power-driven rotary generator in any power plant. Those generators don't actually 'make' electricity. They condense it from the air."

"In 1919 Hubbard represented the apparatus as being capable of extracting electrical energy directly from the air"

Hendershot : "His earlier invention was called a "motor" by the newspapers, but it was actually a generator which was powered by the magnetic field of the earth. His later models created enough electricity to simultaneously light a 120 volt light bulb and a table model radio."

and so on