Donald Smith Devices too good to be true

[mr.clean]

....and hey, can anyone tell me why the strange sine wave on the DC input?

i guess there must be a back feed from the coils collapse and being connected to positive of input as well as at the other end of the coil eh ? that's interesting, but is it desirable? idk

hehe and dont worry, im still going to pursue Don Smith type stuff, but im really intent on getting the BiTT optimized, and observing the most efficient existing devices

...and as a matter of fact, anyone remember that Smith transistor schematic ?...
...with the magnetostrictive rod core (toroid even better)?...
... this could almost still be a Don Smith related phenomenon

[hotrod68r]

hi mr clean. there ya go. don smith ebook, patrick kelly's site. (best take the html download option ).

[level]

....and hey, can anyone tell me why the strange sine wave on the DC input?

i guess there must be a back feed from the coils collapse and being connected to positive of input as well as at the other end of the coil eh ? that's interesting, but is it desirable? idk

hehe and dont worry, im still going to pursue Don Smith type stuff, but im really intent on getting the BiTT optimized, and observing the most efficient existing devices

...and as a matter of fact, anyone remember that Smith transistor schematic ?...
...with the magnetostrictive rod core (toroid even better)?...
... this could almost still be a Don Smith related phenomenon

Hi mr clean. When you pulse a coil, the coil will tend to ring at its natural resonant frequency, or if the coil is connected into other components that have inductance and capacitance and resistance, the ringing frequency will depend on the combination of all the connected components. The smaller the coil, the higher the frequency the coil will ring at. Your waveform is showing a typical sort of ringing pattern likely due to inductance in the circuit. Keep in mind that wire wound resistors or wire wound potentiometers also introduce some inductance into the equation as well, which may or may not be negligible depending on frequency of operation and what you are exactly doing.

[level]

good points and calculations, hehe yes i wondered about the actual input myself,

i took the setup home and set it to 1 volt (or else it would not read at all at .5 volts )
and that simulates well a single AA or AAA.
Also im figuring out how to run this on 12v etc

picture below is of scope across 1 ohm resistor off positive, 4Mhz wave seen, pulsed at 169Khz intervals...

DC power supply read 5mA @ 1volt... scope showed actual was 4mA

Output was able to light multiple bulbs,
(each requiring 1.9volts and 10mA to be as bright straight from the power supply )

and good eye, on that particular one earlier with 6 LEDs did better with a magnet on the core, input current dropped and light increased ! but.. you can do virtually the same with more control by using a pot on the base

i think its because the magnetic field (or whatev ) is simply enhanced from the magnet, and then the field collapse is also enhanced, without using more power to do it

and something new (i think ) is using single wire baby air core pancakes then connected as Joule Thief, got the idea from Incroyables Experiences
(French guys on youtube, fukn really good ! )
but a buddy lent me these perfect little pancakes to try and work beautifully

It looks good mr clean. Without knowing exact circuit details it will be hard for anyone to comment much, but you are showing some interesting results.
If the current meter on your power supply is reading not too far off from your scope, then your power supply current meter may do a fairly decent job when the current is pulsed DC. How well a meter measures pulsed DC at higher frequencies depends on the particular meter. Some do a much better job than others. Your scope may be giving the more accurate reading however. Make sure your scope probe setting is set to 'DC' when measuring current across a sensing resistor from a DC power supply. That way you will include both the DC and AC components of the curent waveform.

Ok on the magnet on the toroid. Naudin has done some experiments with that and has demonstrated some really interesting results. I don't really understand how it all works though.

When you pulse a LED with the back pulse from a coil at a high frequency, the LED can still light quite brightly, but because it is pulsed it may well be drawing somewhat less current than if you connect it to a steady DC supply at say 1.8V. Pulsing a LED is probably a more power efficient way to drive a LED light than using pure DC to power it, but not sure how much more efficient it will be for roughly the same perceived light brightness.

[hotrod68r]

hi mr clean and all. i've read that pancake coils with even a slight conical angle are highly directional,tending to displace the energy to one side,the inside of the cone.this may lead to better coupling at a distance. bit like a microwave dish. it's speculation more than fact but maybe worth trying.

[boguslaw]

you are a good thinkers keep going can't help much but I think this is the right way, even Joule Thief type of circuit can be run this way...
Tesla said that capacitor is marvellous device

[mr.clean]

Hi mr clean. When you pulse a coil, the coil will tend to ring at its natural resonant frequency, or if the coil is connected into other components that have inductance and capacitance and resistance, the ringing frequency will depend on the combination of all the connected components. The smaller the coil, the higher the frequency the coil will ring at. Your waveform is showing a typical sort of ringing pattern likely due to inductance in the circuit. Keep in mind that wire wound resistors or wire wound potentiometers also introduce some inductance into the equation as well, which may or may not be negligible depending on frequency of operation and what you are exactly doing.

It's possible that your current meter on your power supply could be reading fairly close to the actual input current, it depends on a number of factors, but I just wanted to point out that you can't rely on power supply meters and ordinary multimeters when supplying pulser circuits as there is a good chance the readings could be off a fair bit. Using a low ohm value series resistor at a power supply terminal with a scope like you did to see what the input current waveform looks like is always a good idea, and if the waveform is not close to pure DC then the capacitor input power test for measurement comparison purposes is probably a good idea as well. Since you are looking at the current waveform from a DC power supply with your scope probe, make sure to set the scope probe setting to 'DC' so that your scope shows the full waveform which is the AC pulse waveform in combination with any DC level on the AC signal.

The capacitor input power test will not lie in regards to how much real energy is consumed. The only major drawback with using the capacitor for the supply is that its voltage drops over time so you are actually reducing the input power to the circuit over time as the voltage drops on the capacitor. Actual power consumption of the circuit when the voltage is remaining steady will be higher than measured using a capacitor. That's why I kept the measurement period short to 5 seconds in my test. Another way around this is to use a voltage regulator circuit connected to the capacitor, but the regulator will consume power, so that will skew the test results unless you know exactly how much power your regulator circuit consumes, and then you can subtract that.

Input current waveforms will depend on the actual pulser circuit you are using, because some circuits may have a more smoothed current draw at their power supply input terminals than others. If you have some smoothing caps or other filtering components at the input of the circuit the input current at the power supply input terminals of the circuit may be a lot smoother. Also depends on the type of circuit as well. A circuit that produces sharp rectangular pulses compared to a circuit that produces more rounded pulses will likely show different current waveforms at the input terminals as well. Circuits that produce more rectangular pulses can generate a lot more harmonics and electrical noise signals as well, which can make measurements trickier.

The capacitor input power test will work with any circuit that requires a DC power supply, even if the input current waveform is very complex, since we are only looking at total real energy consumed over time (indicated by the actual drop in voltage on the capacitor over the measurement time interval). I intend to use some super capacitors with my sparkgap driver circuits so I can get a good estimate of the real power consumed by the circuit. As you know, the sparkgap circuits produce so much noise on the power supply lines that trying to make accurate input power measurements even with a scope is likely not very accurate.

OK on testing different pulser circuits to find a more efficient driver circuit. That's a good idea. Janost and hotrod68r posted a bunch of pulser/joule ringer type circuits recently here as well...

Epic response man, yes i totally agree

[Gedfire]

Gedfire Update

Coincidentally, I have been recently experimenting with pulse circuits and using power from the back pulses off of coils as well,

What I have been thinking of trying is the following. If the pulse circuit we want to measure input power for has a fairly low input power consumption, then we should be able to use a large capacitor of about 10,000uf to 20,000uf or so to power the circuit for say 5 seconds or possibly more. We can then do some calculations to get what should be a fairly close approximation of the average input power that was consumed for that time period.

This is just an example, and you can see that even a 10,000 uF capacitor would not be able to supply a whole lot of power unless you charge it up to a much higher voltage. With your circuit being powered by 0.5 volts, you might well have to use a super capacitor with a value in the Farad range to do a proper test, but I think this might be a much better way to measure average input power consumption for pulse circuits.

Hi All,

Presently the device I have chosen to work on is about 40% complete.Got some of the major components but thought I had an inverter and now I got to get a new one.

I was playing with a 2 Farad capacitor, charging it up to 12 volts at various frequencies ,various duty cycles,voltmeter attached.Then I used a screw driver to short it.Yiiii! Oh my.....A DIY spot welder!But I have seen bigger sparks on youtube with higher voltages and farads.Suffice to say I am content with discharging this monster of a capacitor with a resistor...and with plenty insulation etc.I actually stand on a 6 inch cushion, rubber slippers on and one hand in pocket.(Overkill?)

I am now working on getting an inverter ,building a good feedback system and a wattmeters for input output measurements.At least one for the output AC. Load will be a 250 watt blender or drill.

I am gonna try to have meters in place for simultaneous measurements at both input and output and if the budget allows me, in the intermediate section.


On the side I amused myself with Don Smith Capacitor Demonstration.I used a power source with 8 energiser AA batteries to power a Batneon form Amazing1.Its HV HF lead going into one side of a 20Kv Capacitor from RCybernetics UK 2.5KV output.

Turns out, I draw sparks from earthground and from wires hanging in thin air!

Seen it, heard about it,even did it before too at 500 volts, but doing it again drives it home the concept solidly.

Safe experimenting and I will be post an update later in the month.


Ged.

[cognito]

I have a question about the 1/4 wave primary coil relation to the secondary coil. Don used the step-up type 1:4 ... we want the step-down type 4:1.

The type of coil Zilano suggested is a "Reverse Tesla coil"
If we want the Reverse coils do we have the 1/4 wave at the secondary coils or at the primary?

Lets say Reverse coils: L1 primary 60 turns and L2 secondary bifilar 10 turns CW and 10 turns CCW back to back ?? 2 inch diameter PVC for primary and 3 inch PVC tube for secondary.

For example...

L1: 2 * PI * 2 * 60 = 753.98 inches /12 = 62.831 feet [(247/62.831 = 4MHz) 1/4 wave or 16MHz full wave!!!]
L2: 2 * PI * 3 * "L2 turns" = 753.98 /4 [<---4??? 64MHz ???]
"L2 turns" = 10

FREQUENCY & WAVELENGTH CALCULATOR

How to calculate the self resonance frequency of the coils?
The inner space between the L2 windings change the capacitance and inductance...and the inductance of extra connected wires to the coils will also change the resonance frequency, are the caps always needed?

Br,
Cognito

Did i right understand, that primary if vibrating on 1 megaherc self frencuency, then secondary coil must vibrate 4 times fatster than primary, to get resonanse betwen primary and secondary?

SEE FIGURE

Hello,

Clarence,

BOTH primary and secondary coils Must resonate at the SAME frequency.
set primary for 35KHZ and then set secondary for 35KHZ also!

as always, mike, onward!

BTW: DONS 1 to 4 relationship has to do with the wire length of the primary coil to secondary coil wire length!

[zolgar]

The calculation of primary and secondary resonance should confirm the output of a circuit designed to resonate such as the ZVS driver, correct?

Presented here is a driver from a video entitled 'Spark-Gap Generator (SSG)'
There are no measurements given for wattage. The input states it is 110 VAC, so perhaps it can tie in with one of the toroidal generators.

[T-1000]

Hi,

I just posted update on Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY if anyone was interested on Dally device. This also somewhat relates on D. Smith resonant flip flop circuits. The idea there is to have one additional coil inside of air core with capacitor and is connected in series to secondary coil so it freely oscillates on resonance. And the input to primary coil (which is also LC circuit on same resonant frequency) is switched off right before load starts affecting input. Perhaps this is what everyone is looking for...?

[boguslaw]

Hi,

I just posted update on Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY if anyone was interested on Dally device. This also somewhat relates on D. Smith resonant flip flop circuits. The idea there is to have one additional coil inside of air core with capacitor and is connected in series to secondary coil so it freely oscillates on resonance. And the input to primary coil (which is also LC circuit on same resonant frequency) is switched off right before load starts affecting input. Perhaps this is what everyone is looking for...?

[cognito]

Hi,

I just posted update on Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY if anyone was interested on Dally device. This also somewhat relates on D. Smith resonant flip flop circuits. The idea there is to have one additional coil inside of air core with capacitor and is connected in series to secondary coil so it freely oscillates on resonance. And the input to primary coil (which is also LC circuit on same resonant frequency) is switched off right before load starts affecting input. Perhaps this is what everyone is looking for...?

Interesting!
Can you locate the SG? I dont understand what hes explaining about resonance of the coils...

Br,
Cognito

[Jacqui]

Gegene

ooo ooo ooo o

[kenssurplus]

Hi Jacqui,

Do you mean this thread?
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...ad.php?t=13303