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[Shamus]

Personally, I'm not so sure that the good guys win in the end as you seem to be so sure of. For myself, I find that I can take nothing for granted and find myself questioning things that are given to me as being unquestionable. For example, Paul the Apostle was only a man, and not everything he said can be considered sacred; I think if he was alive today he would be horrified that his letters to various churches is today considered to be Holy Writ!

As to the issue of John of Patmos and John the Apostle being one and the same person, I'd say the burden of proof is on you. I think if you seriously study the issue you won't like what you find.

It's interesting that the rest of the introduction of the KJV that you posted only serves to underscore my point: Here we have a clear indication of a man (MOST HIGH AND MIGHTY PRINCE) being deified much like the Pope of the Universal Church was. And nobody bats an eyelash at it. Furthermore, we have language such as "our Sion" and "Occidental Star" which is unmistakably masonic.

And I saw that page "King James Was NOT A Freemason", but find it utterly unconvincing since there is documentation all over the place that shows he was (and not just the oblique references in the introduction of the KJV). Just one example:

King James - The Founder of Freemason Lodges - Moriel Ministries

And yes, it does matter if he was a mason or not because people are always saying how masonry (read: current incarnation of the Mystery Religion) was bereft of influence. But most people just don't care that much about history. Any wonder why they're doomed to repeat it?

An interesting side note: Yesterday I attended a service of John Rutter's Requiem at a major Presbyterian church in downtown Austin. As I was entering the sanctuary I noticed an inscription on the pillar to my right depicting a square (with legs pointing to 45 and 135) overlaid with a compass. Yes indeed, masonry has no influence.

[ANTIQUER]

Hey Shamus;

First, let's deal with the dedication (intro.) to the KJV. It is flowery and effusive because that was the way you addressed things to a V.I.P. in those days. After all, he was the King of England and Scotland and his various titles included several "Prince of....". The word Scion simply means "heir". Check English history concerning Henry VIII, his 8 wives and Elizabeth and you will understand why they went on so much about a legitimate heir that could rule unchallenged. "The Occidental Star" simply refers to his mother, Elizabeth, who had died: she was the "Bright Star (sun) of England that had set in the West."

Next, I said previously that a lot of influential and powerful people had been Masons. No doubt over time they have influenced history, but how much was due to being Masons or was simply because of where and who they were we cannot tell with any degree of accuracy.

I would not consider Moriel a reliable source as he has been proven wrong before several times and he gives no source for this opinion. He did , however, provide enough info. to run down the records of the lodge of Scoon and Perth in Scotland.

Perth No3

This seems to affirm that James was initiated as Moriel claims in 1601. However, as the Grand Lodge has no record of this (their earliest monarch mentioned was William I) I think it still suspect (although appearing genuine) until I get a reply to the e-mail I sent them.

Here is a quote from that link;

The year 1193 takes us back into the dark ages of Scottish history; to the building of the Abbey of Scoon, and provides a reasonable conjecture for the erection of the Lodge. It is likely that there was a close connection between operative Masonry and the early monastic institutions which used and fostered the labours of the craft. In those days the "religious" were patrons of all trades and crafts, and were very frequently able exponents themselves of that industry, agriculture and architecture which they used to civilise and Christianise our native land. The practical association of prayer, labour, and charity, which are the marks of our Masonic Orders springs also from this connection and in all probability many of the old established Lodges owe their erection likewise to the building of some great church or monastery.

Their is no mention of any Mystery Religion. Indeed they were founded on and taught Christian principles (at least here; this might indicate their English lodges were later infiltrated and taken over by the Hiram Abif type practitioners). As the Presbyterians were founded in Scotland that explains the symbols on the church you visited.

I think perhaps you are getting a lot of your info. from a book called "The Hiram Key" or maybe they used a lot of the same speculative sources. Most of the lodges who even care discount it as speculative nonsense, at best. Here is an interesting review from one lodge;

"The Hiram Key", a few observations

Here's an excerpt from those comments;

It is speculated that the survival of the Seqenenre resurrection ritual conferred a divine right to rule on the line of David. As an example of the writing style of this book, note that Genesis 49:6 is suggested, without proof, to refer to the death of Seqenenre and then in a later chapter they claim that it "is the only reference in the Bible to the killing of the Theban king, Seqenenre". Such speculation presented as fact is rife throughout the text.

To support this comment and show it is correct here is what really happened in Gen. 49:6. The person in this verse was well known to the KJV translators as they knew their bible. It is also made clear in The Amplified Bible as they supply the name of the individual: Shechem. The killing referred to is recounted earlier in Gen. 34:24-31 where Simeon and Levi slew all the men in the town which is in Palestine. No mystery, just twisting of scripture that is obscure to most people. Typical of these two authors in order to sell books.

Personally, I'm not so sure that the good guys win in the end as you seem to be so sure of. For myself, I find that I can take nothing for granted and find myself questioning things that are given to me as being unquestionable. For example, Paul the Apostle was only a man, and not everything he said can be considered sacred; I think if he was alive today he would be horrified that his letters to various churches is today considered to be Holy Writ!

Personally I find it interesting that certain Christian sects get all hung up on certain versions of the bible, and especially the KJV.

I think these two quotes are the crux of our discussion, so let's address them. Yes Paul was a man, but called of God as were the other apostles. He was singled out to be the Apostle to the Gentiles (us) as Peter was the Apostle to the Jews. All of the Apostle's writings are considered to be sacred as they were inspired and given by God as determined by clerics of many faiths, past and present. After the time of Christ many writings appeared over time which were obviously forgeries and many not so obvious. The KJV translators, as well as others before them, slowly separated out the real inspired writings from thousands of manuscripts, although there is still discussion over some of those that were excluded for various reasons.

Until John Wycliffe in 1320 there was no complete bible in English. After his death William Tyndale took up the job of a better work. Both men believed the word of God should be available to everyone in their own language. For this both were condemned as heretics . Wycliffe died naturally, but his remains were later dug up, burned and thrown in a river by the Catholic Church. Tyndale was burned at the stake and buried. Later his remains suffered the same fate by the Anglican Church. His work was so good 70%-80% remains intact in the KJV.

The KJV has stood the test of time as it accurately presents the Word of God to mankind as evidenced by the results it has produced when accurately understood and followed. Real Christianity as taught by Jesus is this; John 3:3-7 & 16;Act 8:37, Romans 10:9-10; I Peter 3:18. So to be a real Christian you must repent and ask forgiveness of your sins from Him, at which point his Holy Spirit comes to live in you. No amount of thinking or doing good deeds (works) or anything else will bring this about. This experience is like no other; you know beyond a doubt when you are born again into God's family. That's why Christians stick to the KJV. We know it is correct and has produced real, born-again Christians for centuries who carry on His work
(spreading the Gospel of Jesus).

A brief example. There is a man , nickname "Mississippi". He was a terrible man until about 5 years ago, so terrible his family legally disowned him.He said he always had rage inside himself and a terrible confusion and roaring in his head. While on his way to Angola State Penitentiary in Louisiana to serve a life sentence for attempted murder he heard they had a new warden (Burl Cain) and had not even had a fist fight for several days. He could not believe this as this was a terrible place, the worst prison in the south, and he had been there before.
When he arrived he found the warden had brought in religion to the prison as he said "all religions teach character and morals which is what we need here". In a few days his cellmate invited him to a weekly dinner given by some ladies from a nearby church. He agreed (got to be better than prison food), but no religion. He said "Jesus was a fairy tale and anyone believing in him was a fairy". Of course, after dinner someone stood up and began talking about Jesus. He became enraged. As he was about to stand and start throwing furniture his head cleared. He was so stunned he didn't know what to do. For the first time in his life no roaring and confusion! Then a voice in his head said "Jesus loves you." Twice. Stunned, he went back to his cell in a daze. After a couple of weeks of The Holy Spirit dealing with him and discussing it with his cellmate (who was converted in prison) he prayed and told God to send him a sign if this was all real and He wanted him. Two days later his mother, who he had not seen, spoken, or written to in 6 years, called him. He surrendered and accepted Christ. He has become one of the most trusted men in the prison, obtained a ministerial degree and has a ministry among the inmates. He has led his whole family to Christ. Approximately 80% of the prisoners are Christians and the prison has become a model for La. and several other states. That's what the Jesus of the KJV can do and why I know he prevails in the end.

Al

[morpher44]

running the show...

Also: It's easy to make written predictions come true if you're running the show. That is all.

I have to disagree.
No one is running the show. There might be those
who think they are ... but its an illusion.
Each of us is connected to our futures ... and each of
us can predict our own personal life trajectories.
So if we think Apocalypse is coming, it will likely come ... for us.
I think we all project ourselves into our "predicted" futures.

I think the karma that power brokers need to undergo is a lesson
in how they are in fact NOT running the show ... even though
they think they are.

Your end will come regardless of what you do ... like a clock
ticking down ...
run your own show...
carpe diem...
and LIVE while you can live ...
with no FEAR!