Air core vs iron core, different load different result

[sucahyo]

I got confused with my recent experiment.

With battery as load, adding core will reduce output current.
With capacitor as load, adding core will increase output current.
Without load, adding core will reduce output voltage.

Tests with battery or capacitor as load:
YouTube - Different load different core comparison result

Test without load:
YouTube - Coil core voltage measurement


So, which one better, air core or not?

More current is better or worse?

More voltage is better or worse?

Faster charging is better or worse?

How do I know it is better ?

[cody]

[QUOTE]How do I know it is better ?/QUOTE]

I believe you can find which one is better, but you need to take some more measurements to do it.

I would take the air core and:
1) find the output current C
2) find output voltage V
3) calculate output wattage CxV=W(output)
4) find input current C
5) find input voltage V
6) calculate input wattage CxV=W(input)
7)then divide W(output) by W(input) W(o)/W(i)

Do the same steps for the cored coil. Then compare each coils step 7 number. Whichever number is the larger number will be the most efficient coil. Someone correct my math if im wrong here.

[rave154]

looks ok to me cody

[Sephiroth]

I agree with cody

Though I can't make out the current measurements on your analogue meter.

Could you post those measurements here?

[sucahyo]

Whichever number is the larger number will be the most efficient coil.

Forgive me not to provide the voltage info. I forget the exact number but the result is:
- With battery as load, adding core will reduce output current and reduce output voltage.
- With capacitor as load, adding core will increase output current and reduce output voltage.

In term of output power:
-adding core will reduce output power with battery as load
-adding core will increase output power with capacitor as load

Which reference should I choose, the one which increase power on capacitor or on battery?

Also from panacea John Bedini Technology.pdf:

OK as John says, one more time, how much current coming from the drive Bat, vs how much current is going to the charging bat, is not what we are looking for here, when tuned to the sweet spot, the charging current will ALWAYS be FAR LESS THAN the Current Driving the Coil...!!!!!!! SO, what is charging the batteries? The CURRENT LESS Radiant Voltage Spikes.. so forget about the in/out current ratio thing and LOOPING as that is not where the magic happens, it’s really all about the batteries, and NOT about the motor.

I still confuse.....

[Sephiroth]

I think air core is better though it depends on your coil... if the coil is fairly high resistance (ie. more than a couple of ohms) and low inductance then a core may help.

What is the resistance of the coil you are using? could you upload a clear photo of the coil?

[sucahyo]

What is the resistance of the coil you are using? could you upload a clear photo of the coil?

Around 8 ohm. See attachment.

[Sephiroth]

8 ohms is quite high, though it is hard to tell what kind of inductance that coil will have.

To put it in perspective, the coil will draw a maximum of 1.5 amps if the coil wasn't being pulsed and then all the energy being input would be burnt as heat. You want the inductance to hold back as much of that current as possible.

With a 50% duty cycle that coil will draw 375ma if the coil is becoming fully saturated with each pulse. This will be running at it's most ineffcient. You don't want the coil to reach anywhere near saturation. That is the great thing about Bedini's trigger circuit... the coil can never reach saturation because of the way it is triggered.

The higher the frequency you use, the more efficient it will be... to a point. If you use too high a frequency you will come across another problem, the transistor's switching speed. Using higher frequency also means the transistor will be turning on and off alot more. When the transistor is fully open, there is very little impedance associated with the transistor and therefore very little energy is lost through it. however, while the transistor is in the "in between" state, alot of energy is being burnt.

So you want to use a high enough frequency so little energy is lost through the coil, but not so high that you lose too much through the switching.

Using an iron core will let you use a lower frequency so less is being lost through the transistor's switching. Though as I have mentioned before, you will also have losses through using a core, especially at higher frequencies.

There will be an ideal area of operation, regardless of whether you are using an air core or an iron core. The best way to find it is to compare your input and your output with good quality meters; ideally either analogue or true rms.

Solid state has different rules to the motor circuits. In my opinion I don't believe they can go greater than COP1 without the mechanical work in the motor circuits so you want to preserve as much of the energy being input as possible so for solid state circuits you need to concentrate on how to get the most efficient transfer of energy from your source (primary battery, solar panel etc) to your load (your charging battery).

[sucahyo]

Thanks for many tips , I guess input vs output is my best way to measure my circuit performance. I still learning what output is the best for the battery. I currently use another transformer with the core still in place since this has lower impedance (around 2 ohm). I don't want to disassemble this so I use the 8 ohm for the video.

My current circuit efficiency when using 1Kohm base resistance is:
Input = 10.5V x 0.7A = 7.35 watt
Output = 17.7V x 0.21A = 3.71 watt

I guess this is too much for 13% duty cycle. I now charge my battery with 3.2K ohm base resistance:
Input = 10.5V x 0.25A = 2.625 watt
Output = 14.5V x 0.6A = 0.87 watt

The efficiency is lower but the charge seems to retain better. I use frequency/duty cycle where the one wire neon show pulsating lighting. I got the coldest transistor temperature when the neon show that. Based from your explanation I guess lowering the frequency make ON time longer and force too much current, and increasing the frequency will make the switching going too fast. By being in the right frequency and duty cycle the coil and transistor will be at coldest temperature.