Donald L Smith

[h2ocommuter]

Cap. configuration and design / Transformer clarity

Check out the link in my last post to give you a better idea of the cap placement. In an AC configuration the caps are constantly changing polarity. Sort of an "on demand" use. In a DC configuration the caps will store energy similar to a battery which can be used at will.

You sort of lost me on the transformer idea, It looks like the input has a center tap ( or output which ever it is ), and the other side looks like it could be used as various voltages. I'm not sure, you'd need to poke around a bit with a meter to find the variables between different points...

Thanks Dragon,
That Post does certainly have relationship significance in many ways to my application. Thanks for pointing it out.
I seem to have tried everything I could think of to extract some potential and curent out of my plasma globe, as usual, but with this pic I see something labeled A and B directly next to the load. can anyone determine what this is? maybe inductors?

That I am having trouble with about the transformer is, as you suspected the three poles are a center tapped side. and the other side does have choises that include 208 V 220 V and 240 V and Zero V they are all connected on that side as well. My question is like this, what side do I hook up to the circuit breaker panel "My load side" so conversly, which side do I hook up to the plasma globe setup.
The center tap throughs me off, as does the zero voltage lead.
I do want to feed my 240 circuit breaker box with two hot leads.
I never heard of a center tap before hearing of DS's things so I am surprised it is used in other applications
I know this is so basic, but I have never wired up an IT before.

[baroutologos]

Thanks amigo for the elaborate reply! I enjoyed that

By the way, since the voltage arrestor is just a volatge arrestor, where might the ground be? From photos cannot be seen any ground. Perhaps its hidden?
We know that a High frequencies, one wire-electrcity transfer is possible, yet one way or another, a ground is needed or current stops.

Yet a second consideration without a spark-gap, is how to match NST pulsing with LC parallel tank circuit since they seemed not to be in the same frequency range. Any ideas?
....

In any case, with or without a Spark-gap, yes we are dealing with plain resonance here. Not TEsla hammer-like cap discharges, nothing like things.
Pure extra high Q, high frequency, high (relatively) voltage LC tank circuit that manages to stay if not to surpass 2-3 KV range.

[mlurye]

Anybody can give me some good advice on how to tune spark gap to oscillate at 200kHz. NST I'm using is 3KV with center tap, so working voltage is 1.5kV.

[dragon]

Thanks Dragon,
That Post does certainly have relationship significance in many ways to my application. Thanks for pointing it out.
I seem to have tried everything I could think of to extract some potential and curent out of my plasma globe, as usual, but with this pic I see something labeled A and B directly next to the load. can anyone determine what this is? maybe inductors?

That I am having trouble with about the transformer is, as you suspected the three poles are a center tapped side. and the other side does have choises that include 208 V 220 V and 240 V and Zero V they are all connected on that side as well. My question is like this, what side do I hook up to the circuit breaker panel "My load side" so conversly, which side do I hook up to the plasma globe setup.
The center tap throughs me off, as does the zero voltage lead.
I do want to feed my 240 circuit breaker box with two hot leads.
I never heard of a center tap before hearing of DS's things so I am surprised it is used in other applications
I know this is so basic, but I have never wired up an IT before.

The " A and B " in that picture would represent the "nodes" where the hairpin would have an excited field. Shown in the Tesla picture below it where the lights are positioned. This would have to be experimented with to find the highest potental by moving the load around on the hairpin to find these nodes.

I'm assuming your trying to use the transformer to step down the HV and use the lower output at higher amperage to drive a load. I would imagine, and I'm just speculating, that you would connect one lead to the 0v lead and another to one of the other leads that are marked for different voltges. The other side ( output ) would give you 2 sets of voltages depending on which pair you used. The outer two would be the higher voltage where the center tap and 1 outer would be at 1/2 that.

Most iron type transformers can't deal with the high frequencies so it would be imperitive to lower this frequency to a point the transformer can move the flux around properly. A spark gap should be able to control the frequency but it will take some tinkering to find the most efficient output based on what your putting into it.

Thanks for the Dollard video link the other day, that was an interesting set of experiments. I set up a system to test with only 3 links and the results ( as stated ) were very enlightening. I wasn't aware of the fact you could move both magnetic and electric to one end of the string. Quite interesting...
________

[baroutologos]

back to basics

I was investigating the concept ot Don device as understood by Patric Kelly in his famous OU device categorization, under chapter3, in search of any fresh ideas.

One thing that i may add, Patrick Kelly identifies the voltage arrestor as voltage arrestor, but in his diagrams assumes the NST's possitives are connected normaly to NST's ground. From the high quality picture the only ground seemed is via the spark arrestor.

Again, as Amigo said that those feeble voltage arrestors will burn in an instance used as spark-gaps for discharging caps, He is right. They are not used for cap discharge, only as spark-gaps IMO. Its no sense to have a capacitative discharge spark-gap in series with the fragile diodes anyway. Besides NST amperage is quite low (30ma), so no worries for burning out the arrestor (almost infinite life at that current range).
On the other hand, if meant for surge protection its life will be limited to few discharges because they are burned by amperage.

Last to consolidate my point about the arrestor used as a "voltage triggered switch of low current" i say the following... Would you be careless enough to put a safety spark-gap (that's the Amigo proposal for tha arrestor) to go through the NST middle tap? The NST would be burned in the very first discharge of the 3 KV 200nf caps. Highly unlikely.
....

By browsing the same document of Patric Kelly and just before Tariel Kapanadze device, there is a patent application of kwang-jeek Lee. In my oppinion and from initial impressions to me that i am not an RF electrician, it is the most comprehensive dealing with resonance aimed at power amplification (energy?).

He illustrates easily the working concepts, what the Q stands for in a series or parallel resonanant circuit. (series equals source's voltage amplification, parallel source's current amplification)

He examines from what the Q is depended from.
He mentions that Q is depended upon ω (radian speed or frequency) inductunce / resistance. Yes , i have read Tesla patents and i know.

He examines also the mutual inductunce, the coupling coefficient and its effect on secondary (of transformer) voltage/current.
Actually regarding this one i downloaded a nice software built by Mark S. Rzeszotarski, Ph.D., regarding Tesla coils, and show how the movement of the primary affects the M (mutual inductance) and k (coupling coefficient) thus regulating voltage and consequently current...
Tesla Coil Design Software

Furthermore, the inventor deals with the Deamon of reflective impedance. That kind of reflection that is sent back to resonator and stops the resonance from going on as a working resistance is introduced to exit circuit. As many have point out, the trick is to maintain resonance under load extraction.

Lastly he gives experimental data and tries to identify appropriate setups for minimizing reflective impedance (reflective resistance + reactance) to resonator circuit.

He proposes that the load must be reguated to source or vice versa... regulating the source to load needs.

Its a good read for someone that will indulge himself in the resonance realms...

[h2ocommuter]

1:1 It

The " A and B " in that picture would represent the "nodes" where the hairpin would have an excited field. Shown in the Tesla picture below it where the lights are positioned. This would have to be experimented with to find the highest potental by moving the load around on the hairpin to find these nodes.

I'm assuming your trying to use the transformer to step down the HV and use the lower output at higher amperage to drive a load. I would imagine, and I'm just speculating, that you would connect one lead to the 0v lead and another to one of the other leads that are marked for different voltges. The other side ( output ) would give you 2 sets of voltages depending on which pair you used. The outer two would be the higher voltage where the center tap and 1 outer would be at 1/2 that.

Most iron type transformers can't deal with the high frequencies so it would be imperitive to lower this frequency to a point the transformer can move the flux around properly. A spark gap should be able to control the frequency but it will take some tinkering to find the most efficient output based on what your putting into it.

Thanks for the Dollard video link the other day, that was an interesting set of experiments. I set up a system to test with only 3 links and the results ( as stated ) were very enlightening. I wasn't aware of the fact you could move both magnetic and electric to one end of the string. Quite interesting...

I am still not sure what values of electricty is comming out of my L-2 yet so I'll need to leave that issue alone for now.

This is a 1:1 IT.
What it apears I will need to do then is from my L-2, caps , and associated circuit is to build up one leg to carry 240 V and the other to hold 0 volts? Is that what you are saying I need for the input side? If so, that is what I will seek to do.... Can the zero V be grounded? or does that side need to oscilate with the same freq, 1/2 phase out to be zero?
If you allready answered this I am not being an idiot. I must not be ready to listen.
The output side is much clearer. I can use all of the potential from the input side, or 1/2 of it. totally clear. I guess I am half clear overall with the IT. thanks again.

Just as a note; and not per The DS instructions for the circuitry. I must say this because this is not supose to be the criteria for the design. I am simply asking because I have never hooked and IT up and put one to work.

Would you suggest I do a test to operate this IT with household 120 v to see what the outcome will be? Should be pritty safe and I could actually see and measure what the values are comming out, right? I think I've got it!

Zane

[dragon]

I am still not sure what values of electricty is comming out of my L-2 yet so I'll need to leave that issue alone for now.

This is a 1:1 IT.
What it apears I will need to do then is from my L-2, caps , and associated circuit is to build up one leg to carry 240 V and the other to hold 0 volts? Is that what you are saying I need for the input side? If so, that is what I will seek to do.... Can the zero V be grounded? or does that side need to oscilate with the same freq, 1/2 phase out to be zero?
If you allready answered this I am not being an idiot. I must not be ready to listen.
The output side is much clearer. I can use all of the potential from the input side, or 1/2 of it. totally clear. I guess I am half clear overall with the IT. thanks again.

Just as a note; and not per The DS instructions for the circuitry. I must say this because this is not supose to be the criteria for the design. I am simply asking because I have never hooked and IT up and put one to work.

Would you suggest I do a test to operate this IT with household 120 v to see what the outcome will be? Should be pritty safe and I could actually see and measure what the values are comming out, right? I think I've got it!

Zane

I'm really not familiar enough with that many transformers to give you any direct instructions for that unit. Just guessing based on how they work. The 0 volt would be the "neutral" connection and the others the hot leads based on the voltage output you want.

You might drive it with a stepdown transformer, like a 120v in 12v out into it to see how it operates without any real danger and easy to measure.

Also, if there is a name plate you might be able to find some data on the web about it or contact the company.
________

[amigo]

....
One thing that i may add, Patrick Kelly identifies the voltage arrestor as voltage arrestor, but in his diagrams assumes the NST's possitives are connected normaly to NST's ground. From the high quality picture the only ground seemed is via the spark arrestor.

Again, as Amigo said that those feeble voltage arrestors will burn in an instance used as spark-gaps for discharging caps, He is right. They are not used for cap discharge, only as spark-gaps IMO. Its no sense to have a capacitative discharge spark-gap in series with the fragile diodes anyway. Besides NST amperage is quite low (30ma), so no worries for burning out the arrestor (almost infinite life at that current range).
On the other hand, if meant for surge protection its life will be limited to few discharges because they are burned by amperage.

Last to consolidate my point about the arrestor used as a "voltage triggered switch of low current" i say the following... Would you be careless enough to put a safety spark-gap (that's the Amigo proposal for tha arrestor) to go through the NST middle tap? The NST would be burned in the very first discharge of the 3 KV 200nf caps. Highly unlikely.
....

Very interesting thoughts, I will go back and read Ch3.

After making my original post I also gave more consideration to what I wrote...

In your first reply you mention about missing ground. I think the ground could be floating. I just did a simple test, connecting a waveform generator to a LC circuit using a single wire (hot lead) from the generator. I was then looking at the waveform spectrum as well as at the scope waveform via a pickup coil.

It was clear that oscillations are present with fundamental frequency and harmonics visible, so the ground does not necessarily have to be there, it could be virtual.

Now, onto the spark arrestor. I admit I did not consider that we are dealing with milliamp currents so the life of the arrestor would most likely be indefinite. Question is what value did that arrestor have, if it indeed acted as a spark-gap?

By my logic, it would not have been over 2kV, if DS followed good engineering rules and used capacitors rated for 2x the circuit voltage.

But then that make-shift spark-gap would be firing at the rate of the primary LC circuit, which would have to be in the microsecond range, tops. Why? Because GDTs are not designed to recover faster than that and as I posted a quote earlier, they are very bad with transients and the current continues to flow until there's no more.

Regarding burning the NST through a 3kV cap discharge onto its middle-tap via the spark arrestor, you are forgetting that NST middle-tap is connected to the ground (power outlet I presume). The NST will not see any charge as all will be sinked into the ground. Remember, current follows the path of the least resistance.

In any case, I wonder why isn't anyone replicating these conditions yet? Wasn't there someone here already with all the parts or at least most of them?

I will try to do some experiments over the weekend as I have a 1.5kV NST (12 V one so I can fine tune the output voltage) and a bunch of 175V GDTs. Though I am not sure if not having a balanced mid-point grounding on the NST is going to cause any issues yet...

[mlurye]

amigo,
properly build device will resonate at 200kHz. I do have all parts, but missing correct spark gap

[h2ocommuter]

Off topic, sorry I thought it was important.

This story gripped me so much I thought it so vital we continue to strive to accomplish our tasks.
A friend told me of this travisty aginst humanity and electrical engineering.

YouTube - Who killed the electric car? (10of10)

h2ocommuter

long live open source.

note: # 10 is a snipit of all previous and in 1 or two the electronic engineer tells of the specs OMG 100K watts or somthing like that! This is a great loss!
The movie is available with the same name.... web site....
I think we should all have a bumper sticker that says "I want my EV1"
Thats it. sorry about the off topic.

[h2ocommuter]

correct Spark gap?

amigo,
properly build device will resonate at 200kHz. I do have all parts, but missing correct spark gap

What would you discribe as a correct spark gap?
Micro controles or maximum distributive, or both?
I have got some 50 to 60 amp carbon type brushes that came out of a diesel starter motor that could be rigged up for maximum distributive with micro controles.
That being said I guess I will put the second one together and see if it makes a differance with my plasma globe.

[baroutologos]

Food for though,
First one hot lead can produce oscillations from the signal generator (we all know the one wire electricity transfer, see Dr. Stfiller SEC), you cannot produce it via diodes. See yourself. You need ground or very very feeble results obtained since the diodes anyway, possess a stray capacitance (like a varactor) that is depended on frequency and physical size (use 1N4148 and 50 Khz frequency range to see the diodes stop one wire power transfer effectively).

Regarding arrestor recovery time, is it lower than an oper air spark gap? we do not know. And yes, it will conduct all the current of NST phase until no more or just what the cap voltage level / NST possitive cycle permits (miliamps anyway)

So by proposing to discharge the arrestor to a real-ground of the NST so as to protect the tank circuit... via what? The diodes? The NST primaries that are connected? Can the diodes (VARO 4000 volts 50ma max) handle the capacitative discharge via them or NST's primary? Unlikely. (see diagram)

..
For those involved and have (as much as info permits) the Kapanadze device, apart from the setup circuit of the 2 transistors, the green box and the output coils, the device had a spark-gap one the side, whose sparks were too feeble to be capacitative discharges. No noise no cracking sound, nothing. So the resemblence to Don Smith feeble arrestor proposed working is striking.
....

Anyway, i am not to pick an Don's Smith circuit explanatory fight with fellow experimenter Amigo. The point is we must have:

* A primary parallel LC operated at KV, many amps at high frequency. (parametric resonated or no)

how high? High enough so as not to have radiation losses 100 Khz are fine or less. Tesla has said in one patent that for elimination of hertzian radiation you should stay as low as 20 Khz..
and secondly the collection diodes (and primaries) can handle succesfully.

Again from my study i find difficulty to visualize pulsing sunchronization of LC that has one frequency and the rectified NST having another frequency. Perhaps the spark-gap as i explained plays the role of synchronization...

Otherwise, the slide PVC perhaps hides a magnetic core inside so at to lower the frequency at NST levels 62Khz now possitive cycles.
Again by using a ferrite core, other issues arise as BH curves, and saturation that acts dynamically on Inductunce making things more complicated.

Regarding replications, in the OU.com forum, very serious attempts were made. But, noone as far i have read have boosted his/her setup at KV ranges of pure resonance, not to speak of load matching.

[mlurye]

What would you discribe as a correct spark gap?
Micro controles or maximum distributive, or both?
I have got some 50 to 60 amp carbon type brushes that came out of a diesel starter motor that could be rigged up for maximum distributive with micro controles.
That being said I guess I will put the second one together and see if it makes a differance with my plasma globe.

h2ocommuter,
I'm talking about tabletop device not plasma globe.

Correct spark gap would be the one that will get me 200kHz oscillations.

And I don't know how can I use micro controller to get 1.5kV oscillate at needed frequency I'm thinking about replacing spark gap with SCR then I can use some help with how to do that, I don't have any experience with micro controllers.

[boguslaw]

If Don Smith device is working on radiant energy which Tesla investigated then it would be easy to check it. Just make it work with low frequency like 100hz-1khz range and check for famous wireless effect on skin.

[amigo]

@mlurye

When you say "spark-gap" you refer to the spark arrestor, right, as per DS circuit? Why not get one and try it out since you have the rest of the parts?

By the way, how do you know that the circuit operates at 200kHz? Was that value measured on the tabletop device, or was it derived based on the values of capacitors and assumed wire length of the primary?

@baroutologos

I don't see our debate as a fight, we are trying to explain how this circuit works and this knowledge will benefit everyone, so keep those ideas coming.

The spark arrestor definitely has a terrible recovery time and that's known, just look up the data sheets. Terrible recovery for what we assume its purpose is supposed to be, the spark gap. We really need to test this out and put it to bed.

Also, you say primary operates at high kV at many amps, but I am not so sure about many amps. Where would that come from, the 0.1uF/4kWVDC caps?

So about the spark arrestor, dare I postulate only two options:

a) The arrestor DOES play a role of a spark gap and its rating is high enough to produce interruptions of desired frequency, or

b) The arrestor is only there to limit the voltage in the primary to some manageable levels and nothing else.

Furthemore, to stretch the imagination, the schematic and all the component values were derived from the videos, except for the spark arrestor. Shouldn't it be possible to extrapolate the candidates for the right value based on the dimensions and the look of the arrestor, as well as the year when the device was built.

What the rest of you think?