Reactive Power Generator (RPG) Replication Project

[Aaron]

Hi Aaron and all,

it's been a while since all my SG and mostly solid state SG related experiments. The RPG setup is quite interesting, I have watched the videos. Since the usable output power (gen), compared to the back and forth-swapping input energy, is quite low I wonder what it would look like replacing the motor with an open core Transformer, where you'd get like 50% of the energy on the secondary during the On time, and 50% or better from primary flyback directed to the second battery bank.
This RPG setup woke some questions though... :

- Didn't John always say don't use an inductive collapse charge battery on the front? Yet it seems to work, but only with short swaps? This point has always been confusing.

- For the short swaps to work, do the batts have to be in an almost discharged state (12V)?

- Car batts have lower impedance ok, what is your take on AGM batts? They have low impedance as well.

- When doing repeated complete cycles with inductive SG spike charging, the result I've seen is always that after a few cycles the batts yes charge faster, but also sustain a load (inverter or lamps) for a shorter time, like they shrink in capacity. Maybe it's this state that is the best for short batt swapping setups? When I then would start cycling them with cap pulsers again, they would go back to a normal battery behaviour, meaning charge / discharge times.

- Your 170000 uF into 7Ah gel cell setup, did you also try back-popping the primary? Did it sustain itself?

regards,
Mario

Hi Mario, been a long time!

Yes, John has said that a few times regarding about not running the energizer on batts that were charged with spikes. I think the idea is that spike charged batteries were best for inductive loads (EDIT - I MEANT RESISTIVE LOADS). People can believe what they want, but resistive loads like incandescent bulbs seemed whiter and brighter for the same draw compared to normally charged batteries.

He was never doing short swaps that I know of - only long because of the idea of doing long swaps to give the batteries enough time to do the chemical conversion of the potential - or for the battery to "absorb" it. I don't know how absolute he was about that, how much was based on belief about the spikes creating holes (the quantum idea of holes being filled by hot current with normal chargers or cap dumps before it can charge in the forward direction). Bearden gave his own ideas about that particular idea.

For short swaps, I'd have the batteries charged and rejuvenated as possible. I think they just happened to go down to those voltages, then would maintain, then after turning off, would jump back up to x voltage and that would repeat between that upper resting and the lower discharge while staying fairly constant in terms of those upper and lower ranges.

AGM is deep cycle typically but what is the impedance compared to starter batteries?

They definitely charge faster after conditioned with spikes. The conditioning process does do that and countless experimenters have experienced that over the last 25 years. Inverter maybe, not sure about lamps - I have seen resistive loads last longer than charged by normal hot current charging. That was with the 20 hour discharge rating and was like Battery discharge 101 many years ago. Bedini called the cap charging (with spikes) as "forward conversion" because it converts it to normal, forward energy.

I didn't "back pop" the primary. It did not sustain itself. I'd run the trifilar on a different 12 v battery and would do cap dumps to the 2 x gel cells, put them back in my scooter and would drive it around including riding it down to John's shop maybe 100 yards away for a visit and then back to my work.

[Aaron]

Hey fellas I don’t know how many of you have the Bedini pulse chargers, but if you do… this is what I do to condition my wet cell starter batteries.

1) I discharge them with a constant current load, C20 to C5 discharge rate
2) Recharge the battery with your pulse charger at least to 15.3 to 16 volts, after this voltage is reached leave the charger on for an hour or two to ensure battery is fully charged.
3) Repeat steps 1 & 2 3 to five times
4) Each cycle will enhance battery capacity, so that your resting voltage will be 13.25volts for a 12 volt battery when finished.

For starter batteries I often use a carbon pile tester, when discharging my starter batteries for a 850cca I load the battery down to 450 amps for 15 seconds, keeping the voltage above 10 volts during the load test. I do this three times and then recharge the battery with my Bedini pulse charger. This is the standard automotive battery load test to determine the battery capacity and health.

It is a faster way to condition batteries.

Benefits:
Capacity will increase (more amp hours) 110% plus capacity.
Charge times will decrease 15-20 percent.
Battery will continue to charge itself for a time, when conditioned and the charger is removed. This will aid when cycling back and forth.
Battery will take a longer time to arrive at resting voltage.



Dave Wing

Dave,

Whatever your CCA is, how do you calculate what the Ah rating might be to base your 20 hour discharge on? You've been in this for a really long time and know what the deal is - you could give tutorials on battery rejuvenation.

For anyone new to this, your steps are a great, simple rejuvenation process. With a new battery, John's spanker, a single charge on a deep cycle would give me 10% greater than the manufacturer's stated Ah rating right off the batt, such as a 35Ah AMG Harbor Freight battery for example.

I don't personally like those battery shorters, but it works.

All the benefits you state are for sure!

[tarak]

Hi Jettis, if you are using a standard wet cell with sulfuric acid, in the very first batteries made the was a booklet that came out back in the time they were first building the ‘wet cell’.
The manufactures found out that they way they were built and charged, they would last for 20years, not much good to make money. So, they changed the charging process, and then they would not get much past five years, these days it is more like two.
Trogen built the best battery but expensive but they could go for now ten years, there was a good reason for this. Now they are changing the electrolyte to get them to last 15yrs.
You can do this with a ‘wet cell’ if you buy it in the ‘dry state’ no acid in the battery, then you make you own electrolyte from ‘Epsom salts’, then it is charge at an 20% on and 80% off up to 16volts. Bedini chargers are good. Most modern smart chargers will not charge unless the battery is in a good condition and at a high enough voltage.

[jettis]

Dave,

Whatever your CCA is, how do you calculate what the Ah rating might be to base your 20 hour discharge on? You've been in this for a really long time and know what the deal is - you could give tutorials on battery rejuvenation.

For anyone new to this, your steps are a great, simple rejuvenation process. With a new battery, John's spanker, a single charge on a deep cycle would give me 10% great than the manufacturer's stated Ah rating right off the batt, such as a 35Ah AMG Harbor Freight battery for example.

I don't personally like those battery shorters, but it works.

All the benefits you state are for sure!

Hey Aaron, I believe much the same as RS posted take your CCA and divide by 20 to get the amp hour rating of your starter battery.

John also said this…

IMG_4507.jpeg

[jettis]

Hi Jettis, if you are using a standard wet cell with sulfuric acid, in the very first batteries made the was a booklet that came out back in the time they were first building the ‘wet cell’.
The manufactures found out that they way they were built and charged, they would last for 20years, not much good to make money. So, they changed the charging process, and then they would not get much past five years, these days it is more like two.
Trogen built the best battery but expensive but they could go for now ten years, there was a good reason for this. Now they are changing the electrolyte to get them to last 15yrs.
You can do this with a ‘wet cell’ if you buy it in the ‘dry state’ no acid in the battery, then you make you own electrolyte from ‘Epsom salts’, then it is charge at an 20% on and 80% off up to 16volts. Bedini chargers are good. Most modern smart chargers will not charge unless the battery is in a good condition and at a high enough voltage.

Hi Tarak, Interesting you posted about adding epsom salts to batteries, I remember Gary Bedini telling me on the phone one day that I should try epsom salts in my batteries, he said John uses it all the time. Also I think it was in the 1984 town hall meeting John mentions the use of an additive to his batteries, could it have been epsom salts? I don’t know.

I know they have used Epsom salts, carbon and various other compounds in batteries for rejuvenation and other purposes for quite some time.

Just curious if anyone has experimented with this?

Aaron do you recall anything on this?

Dave Wing

[Aaron]

Hey Aaron, I believe much the same as RS posted take your CCA and divide by 20 to get the amp hour rating of your starter battery.

John also said this…

IMG_4507.jpeg

I remember that post.

So with the tests posted on the link that Donald gave, CCA / 7 ~ 20 is a pretty wide range. There is no definite ratings as there is a huge margin between all the starter batteries. Again, everyone has to figure out their own by doing various amp loads to find their own 20, 10 and 5 hour discharges on their own starter batteries.

[Aaron]

Hi Tarak, Interesting you posted about adding epsom salts to batteries, I remember Gary Bedini telling me on the phone one day that I should try epsom salts in my batteries, he said John uses it all the time. Also I think it was in the 1984 town hall meeting John mentions the use of an additive to his batteries, could it have been epsom salts? I don’t know.

I know they have used Epsom salts, carbon and various other compounds in batteries for rejuvenation and other purposes for quite some time.

Just curious if anyone has experimented with this?

Aaron do you recall anything on this?

Dave Wing

For the most part, most of the SG tests were done with normal batteries without the epsom salt modification.

1984 - not sure.

You can abuse the epsom salt variants quite a bit and they keep coming back more than sulfuric acid and that's a whole other subject but for these purposes, it's not significant as Mike's were not changed to the epsom salt electrolyte.

[Mario]

Hi Mario, been a long time!

Yes, John has said that a few times regarding about not running the energizer on batts that were charged with spikes. I think the idea is that spike charged batteries were best for inductive loads. People can believe what they want, but resistive loads like incandescent bulbs seemed whiter and brighter for the same draw compared to normally charged batteries.

He was never doing short swaps that I know of - only long because of the idea of doing long swaps to give the batteries enough time to do the chemical conversion of the potential - or for the battery to "absorb" it. I don't know how absolute he was about that, how much was based on belief about the spikes creating holes (the quantum idea of holes being filled by hot current with normal chargers or cap dumps before it can charge in the forward direction). Bearden gave his own ideas about that particular idea.

For short swaps, I'd have the batteries charged and rejuvenated as possible. I think they just happened to go down to those voltages, then would maintain, then after turning off, would jump back up to x voltage and that would repeat between that upper resting and the lower discharge while staying fairly constant in terms of those upper and lower ranges.

AGM is deep cycle typically but what is the impedance compared to starter batteries?

They definitely charge faster after conditioned with spikes. The conditioning process does do that and countless experimenters have experienced that over the last 25 years. Inverter maybe, not sure about lamps - I have seen resistive loads last longer than charged by normal hot current charging. That was with the 20 hour discharge rating and was like Battery discharge 101 many years ago. Bedini called the cap charging (with spikes) as "forward conversion" because it converts it to normal, forward energy.

I didn't "back pop" the primary. It did not sustain itself. I'd run the trifilar on a different 12 v battery and would do cap dumps to the 2 x gel cells, put them back in my scooter and would drive it around including riding it down to John's shop maybe 100 yards away for a visit and then back to my work.

Hi Aaron,

thank for your reply. But if batts charged with SG flyback spikes work best with inductive loads like you said, why should it not be able to power an SG which is an inductive load?

Anyway, about AGM vs flooded lead acid batts, across different sites they say this:

"At first, the internal resistance of most brand-new flooded lead acid batteries ranges from 10% to 15%. On the other hand, an AGM battery can have resistance as low as 2%, which makes it extremely effective".

Not sure what the % is referring to though?

For instance YUASA NP7-12L 7Ah VRLA are AGM and have an internal impedance of 23 milliohms @1kHz. Put 4 of them in parallel and you already have a 28Ah batt that has only 5.75 milliohms which is not bad for such a small size.

regards,
Mario

[jettis]

Dave,

Whatever your CCA is, how do you calculate what the Ah rating might be to base your 20 hour discharge on? You've been in this for a really long time and know what the deal is - you could give tutorials on battery rejuvenation.

For anyone new to this, your steps are a great, simple rejuvenation process. With a new battery, John's spanker, a single charge on a deep cycle would give me 10% greater than the manufacturer's stated Ah rating right off the batt, such as a 35Ah AMG Harbor Freight battery for example.

I don't personally like those battery shorters, but it works.

All the benefits you state are for sure!

Aaron, Like you state every new battery should be conditioned, you will see gains in capacity, batteries from new do not have the highest capacity and even can be sulphated from sitting on the shelf in the store. It pays when buying new batteries to check the date of manufacture and get the newest one possible then condition them prior to use.

Another good thing to do is after every test run, or nightly after your testing is completed recharge your batteries to their full capacity overnight. This way you are always starting your test runs with the fully charged batteries (each charge cycle will give you a little more capacity, until you reach the max capacity limit) so each new test run can be restrained in a more controlled manner and your batteries are always in their top form and not being damaged from operating in a depleted state.

After two or three days the effects of pulse charged conditioning of your batteries can wear off, as Aaron, Peter, John and others have said. It is proven that pulsed charged batteries have an interaction between the battery (which of its self is a dipole that is imbedded in the vacuum) and the environment and this interaction or effect wears diminishes over time. You basically loose the faster charge times. I also recommend the video Aaron suggested, where John and Peter tested the pulsed charged battery powered golf cart.

If your batteries are conditioned and fully charged daily, you have a real good baseline for performing your testing and or R&D.

Another point I want to make is may or may not be known is AGM batteries should not ever be charged beyond 15.3 volts any more than this and the battery starts to vent hydrogen and will boil off all the water contained within the glass mat material and dry out the battery in short order, thus rendering your expensive battery totally useless. You cannot successfully add more water to make them rehydrated and serviceable.

To me that is why wet cells are better, they are more forgiving with over charging, if you boil off the water from over charging you simply add more water and you are good to go again. I suspect not many people have a Energenx 2 amp charger (spanker) it was regulated to 15.3 volts maximum charging voltage, it would not over charge AGM batteries. The charger that Rick Friedrich sells (Early models that Energenx produced for Renaissance charge) will over charge your AGM batteries, causing drying by taking them to 16 volt’s plus. The point is AGM batteries will not withstand much over charging abuse and this can be costly.

Wet cells are more forgiving in the long run, Mike uses wet cells marine batteries in his RPG and it works. As I said before I would like to see how his machine would run on conditioned batteries.

Dave Wing

[jettis]

I will post this link to Vulcan Electric Inc. https://www.vulcanenergy.ca/reference

This charger below reconditions batteries very well I have an older model of the 96 volt version and it works well to desulphate batteries and recondition them.

https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...ion+Manual.pdf

IMG_3898.jpeg
IMG_3899.jpeg

Dave Wing

[Donald Haas]

Joster,
I have 19 of these available.

IMW120R220M1HXKSA1

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/...xksa1/10296200
bro d

[Energy_Hack]

Here are test results for my RPG in SG battery mode (series connected batteries)

24v supply
(2) 100Ah batts
Swap every 2-minutes
(3) power coils wired in series
(3) gen coils that produced about 5 watts that powered the switching electronics and batt swapper
RPM = 1200
Rotor weight = 25 lbs
Magnet Configuration N/S
Trigger device = Hall Sensor
PWM to adjust pulse width
Timing disc to adjust timing of pulses

Average Input Power = 2.8Amps x 24 volts = 67 watts
Average Output Power = 4.5 watts
Power Recovery measures at 10-20% according to clamp meter on flyback line to charge battery

Run time = 61 hours

When batteries started showing less than 10.5v, I shut down system. It likely could have run longer but batts may have drained down to 7 or 8 volts while under load.

Ah Capacity = (2) batt chains at 100Ah and 24 v ea.
Measured Output = 171 Ah/2 = 85.5 Ah
Power Recovery = 85% (not including small amount of gen power to run electronics)

Conclusion:
1) The Batteries are NOT be in GREAT condition. They are only 2 years old but were sitting unused for many months before being charged up prior to test.
2) The Series battery configuration does not conventionally recover much power (10-20% of what was sent to motor)
3) I did not see very high spikes in voltage at the switch (only 56v)
4) current spikes were however about 13 amps on each pulse

Next Steps:
1) Re run test but put the batteries in common ground mode or "parallel" configuration. This circuit is essentially a Boost converter circuit and conventionally known to recover well over 60% of input power. (maybe even 95% in some instances)

Other Thoughts:
1) If Mike Clarke and Paul Babcock have their systems set up in common-ground battery mode... it's reasonable they are recovering 60% or more of the incoming power to the charge batt. (I've measured 60% with my crudely built system and sure they are doing better)...(measure power IN to coil and compare to power IN to charge batt)

In that case, the batteries would reasonably deliver 2.5x their rated value since 60% of the input power is returned (100-60=40, 100/40 = 2.5 COP). If additionally, 20-25% mechanical power can be removed from the rotor.. they have a system that may produce 60% + 25% = 85% efficiency. This would be conversion efficiency (see Jim Murray body of work). It's not unreasonable for the system to go over 100% efficiency if the primary circuit can deliver 80% recovery and the mechanical rotor another 25%. (80+25=105%)

Hope to have new test results in a couple weeks.

[Aaron]

Hi Aaron,

thank for your reply. But if batts charged with SG flyback spikes work best with inductive loads like you said, why should it not be able to power an SG which is an inductive load?

Anyway, about AGM vs flooded lead acid batts, across different sites they say this:

"At first, the internal resistance of most brand-new flooded lead acid batteries ranges from 10% to 15%. On the other hand, an AGM battery can have resistance as low as 2%, which makes it extremely effective".

Not sure what the % is referring to though?

For instance YUASA NP7-12L 7Ah VRLA are AGM and have an internal impedance of 23 milliohms @1kHz. Put 4 of them in parallel and you already have a 28Ah batt that has only 5.75 milliohms which is not bad for such a small size.

regards,
Mario

Sorry, I meant better for resistive loads. I corrected my post above.

Yeah, I don't know what their % means.

If the AMG are that much lower than starter batteries, I'd imagine they should work really good. I just don't like that they're maintenance free. I've toasted a number of the harbor freight 35ah amg batteries over the years. I think I ran one of the bicycle wheel SG's with cap dump with AMGs on the front and back.

[Mario]

Sorry, I meant better for resistive loads. I corrected my post above.

Yeah, I don't know what their % means.

If the AMG are that much lower than starter batteries, I'd imagine they should work really good. I just don't like that they're maintenance free. I've toasted a number of the harbor freight 35ah amg batteries over the years. I think I ran one of the bicycle wheel SG's with cap dump with AMGs on the front and back.

Hi Aaron, I completely forgot that 5 years ago we already had this short thread discussing the cap dumps you mentioned, I couldn't replicate your findings and asked for some specifics but then you probably forgot about it.

http://www.energeticforum.com/forum/...i-s-cap-pulser

regards,
Mario

[Aaron]

Hi Aaron, I completely forgot that 5 years ago we already had this short thread discussing the cap dumps you mentioned, I couldn't replicate your findings and asked for some specifics but then you probably forgot about it.

http://www.energeticforum.com/forum/...i-s-cap-pulser

regards,
Mario

Ok, I'll answer you over there so we don't distract from this thread.