Reactive Power Generator (RPG) Replication Project

[Energy_Hack]

Bro D,

That all looks correct.

Nice work.

Have you measured current In/Out of your circuit?

I’m curious how much power you’re recovering to the charge bank. In theory, the inductor will only return at best half the energy supplied to it. (E=1/2 * L * i^2)

My own tests confirmed that general figure of a 50% recovery under ideal circumstances but Mike Clarke claimed he was getting more power back to the batteries than was supplied. This is how he was able to run the system indefinitely, whereas ours drains down the batteries.

EH

[edbecnel]

Me, Paul and RS all use Kicad for schematic and PCB design. RS uses other programs too I think - it's the only one me and Paul uses for sure. In case there is a need to be compatible with what we use in case we share project files at some point for this or other projects, I'd recommend Kicad. I keep an old 5.x version, 6 and 7 on my computer since different circuits was done with different versions. Anytime I do anything new, I only use the latest 7.0.

https://www.kicad.org/

Yes, I have Kicad installed. I haven't spent much time to see what it's capabilities are but it seems to be comprehensive, so will likely just use it, instead. Thanks Aaron.

[Aaron]

I used a clamp meter attached to scope and measured average current in and out of the circuit. (Current In measured as input to coils and out as line after diode).
I found the best recovery rates are with the batteries in parallel (generator - mode in Bedini books). However in this mode any recovered power goes back through the drive battery and further drains it. The original Bedini “SG”isolates the recovered power and the drive batt stays charged longer but the charging is less.
I multiplied average current by batt voltage to get average power In and Out. The power out was always less than the power in and so the batteries always drained down. I used up to (5) 100Ah batts in each bank and so they held for quite a while but would eventually die off. If the drive was pulling 5A and returning 2.5A, The bank had 40hours of capacity and so I’d leave it running for almost 20 hours before I started seeing them dropping in voltage.

Ok, using meters on the output of these circuits will not tell you anything useful as the readings don't have anything to do with the load powering capability of what you wind up with in the output battery bank.

Typically, meters will measure 20-25% of what leaves the input battery bank - surprised you're showing 50%. When these spikes charge the output battery, the batteries convert this to chemical charge separation and what you wind up with is related to the electrical output of the circuit but is not directly proportional. The batteries are part of the open circuit as are the permanent magnets and the collapsing magnetic field.

The same relationship applies to cap discharge.

If you use deep cycles (not as good as starter batteries for this) where you have an amp hour rating to do some real drawdown tests, you measure what leaves the input until the battery goes from 10.5 volts to 15 volts or whatever. So you have a known watt seconds of input. Then AFTER the output bank is charged, you remove the battery and put a 20 hour rated load on the battery to see how many watt seconds you get from it until it is back down to the 10.5 volts or whatever. This is the most honest test you can do because it actually shows you what load powering capability wound up in the battery after charging it with spikes or cap dump. Even with mediocre builds, getting 80% back is like falling off a log. A really good build, scaled, up, etc. can easily be 90-95% recovery. Then if you add 15% mechanical with repulsion mode, you're at a COP of 1.05~1.10. With attraction mode, add 20-25% mechanical for COP 1.10~1.15. And this has been the case for ages for simple 12v systems, obsolete silicon recovery diodes, high loss npn transistors, etc.

So getting 90-95% with all of those disadvantages, you can see how getting the banks to sustain themselves with higher voltage, air core, insanely fast SiC diodes and low loss fets is not out of the realm of possibility.

There are gain mechanisms all over the place in this system - in the battery, from the permanent magnets and from the spike. These 3 give you enough extra to self sustain since they're all open windows to pulling in more potential than what you are providing from the input batteries. I can go into those later but knowing the significance of why those pull in more potential is irrelevant if the system is built right and is run right because you will still get the results.

[Donald Haas]

EH,
I have measured the amps in and out.
I expect the amps out to be far less than in because charging is a mixture of amps and results of the spikes.
Paul B is saying that a pulse motor is part of an OU system but is only about 40% efficient by itself.
Our direction is rapid switching with ulta fast pulse off (sic fets) and much higher voltage than the Bedini basic bike wheel.
Bedini hot rod plan.jpeg
Aaron might want to take this pic down but it is on the web.
Paul B's "they are all the same" vid is my reference.

bro d

P.S. I posted this before I read Aaron's post above on the same subject.

[jettis]

Hey Aaron,

Mike Clarke has said he has doubled the output amperage vs the input amperage. Is that the case? If yes is he using a specific coil winding method to achieve this? Does he use the flyback to power the motor during the power cycle, before it goes back to the charging bank?

I believe you have seen the machine run, many times, maybe you can say if both battery banks do in fact charge up well beyond 13.2 volt’s for each 12 volt battery. I also observed in Mike’s videos he is running his battery banks all the time at 12.1 volts (60 volts, 5 batteries in series x 2 groups), which is in a state of discharge with partially sulphated plates. Is that the accurate?

I am just asking because in his video presentations he mentions 60 volts for 5 batteries quite a few times. I’m just trying to figure what he is doing so I can relate it to my own work experience.

Does Mike only use the auxiliary generator to power external loads only and not charge the battery banks the machine is running with? Do you know if Mike uses the generator to power the motor during a power cylce?

Sorry for the 10,000 questions!

Thanks,

Dave Wing

[jettis]

One more thing do we have permission to use screen shots or video bites from the video presentations, from Paul or Mike and post them in this thread?

[edbecnel]

Hey Aaron,

Mike Clark has said he has doubled the output amperage vs the input amperage. Is that the case? If yes is he using a specific coil winding method to achieve this? Does he use the flyback to power the motor during the power cycle, before it goes back to the charging bank?

I believe you have seen the machine run, many times, maybe you can say if both battery banks do in fact charge up well beyond 13.2 volt’s for each 12 volt battery. I also observed in Mike’s videos he is running his battery banks all the time at 12.1 volts (60 volts, 5 batteries in series x 2 groups), which is in a state of discharge with partially sulphated plates. Is that the accurate?

I am just asking because in his video presentations he mentions 60 volts for 5 batteries quite a few times. I’m just trying to figure what he is doing so I can relate it to my own work experience.

Does Mike only use the auxiliary generator to power external loads only and not charge the battery banks the machine is running with? Do you know if Mike uses the generator to power the motor during a power cylce?

Sorry for the 10,000 questions!

Thanks,

Dave Wing

I do know that the only thing powering external loads comes from the auxiliary generator (mechanical power from the drive shaft). You should never use any of the flyback energy to power external loads. All of the flyback energy goes into keeping the batteries charged.

[Aaron]

If yes is he using a specific coil winding method to achieve this? Does he use the flyback to power the motor during the power cycle, before it goes back to the charging bank?

I believe you have seen the machine run, many times, maybe you can say if both battery banks do in fact charge up well beyond 13.2 volt’s for each 12 volt battery. I also observed in Mike’s videos he is running his battery banks all the time at 12.1 volts (60 volts, 5 batteries in series x 2 groups), which is in a state of discharge with partially sulphated plates. Is that the accurate?

Does Mike only use the auxiliary generator to power external loads only and not charge the battery banks the machine is running with? Do you know if Mike uses the generator to power the motor during a power cylce?

Hi Dave,

As far as I know single winding motor coils.

As Ed mentioned, I believe all spikes are dedicated only to the output battery and shaft generator is the only thing that powers external loads.

I don't recall the voltages, but after a run, the voltage always rebounds back up to a certain point.

[Aaron]

I thought about the comments on % measured on output compared to input vs what I said about 20-25%. 20-25% was typical for a single coil with multifilar windings such as a coil with 6-7 power windings and 1 trigger. With larger builds, higher voltages, etc. I don't see why they can't be higher but still, the measured output is basically irrelevant and what counts is what the battery does with it - again, it's related but is absolutely not directly proportional.

If you know your own battery capacity and know your input draw then that is enough information to figure out if you have over 1.0 COP when accounting for what went into the output battery and that battery goes back to the front and front to back to run off of recovery. Even if your particular system shows a decline over time, was the total watt seconds in excess of what you started with? It can show over 1.0 COP without keeping themselves charged up. There's a lot of misconception that something has to self run in order to show "overunity" or over 1.0 COP when it just has to show a gain over time - self-sustaining isn't a requirement, it's a goal.

Let's say you only get 1.25 COP - I'd say that is a huge success because who else is showing any repeatable performance over 1.0 COP electric/magnetic system on the internet? I see claims and that is about it. I know what Mike and Paul have and part of my goal is to see multiple replication attempts that at minimum produce over 1.0 COP performance with a higher goal to replicate the self sustaining performance.

Figure out your mechanical and add that too.

Out of curiosity, is anyone starting with full charged batteries on BOTH the front end and back end?

Or, is anyone starting with full bank on the front and partially discharged one on the back end?

Is anyone that is starting with a "fully charged" bank charging each 12v battery to 15.1-15.3 volts so that it actually is charged up? Anything less for a 12v lead acid is not really charged.

[ggx9]

Are batteries essential for these systems due to their chemistry or will super caps work?
As I understand it capacitors have better round trip efficiency than batteries particularly for short durations as Mikes system is switching the batteries every 2 minutes or so.
Capacitors also typically have better surge capabilities.
Whether batteries or caps, this is where most of the materials expense is.
I haven't read any discussion on skin effect for current carrying capability of various gauge copper wire at high frequencies/risetimes. This would be particularly interesting though frequency isn't really the factor so much as the very fast risetimes involved with these circuits hence some consideration for Litz wire.
It's been several years since I made an SSG and I would like to pick up in the direction Mike and others are going here.
I appreciate all the great work and generosity with information from those working here.

RichardG

[Aaron]

Are batteries essential for these systems due to their chemistry or will super caps work?
As I understand it capacitors have better round trip efficiency than batteries particularly for short durations as Mikes system is switching the batteries every 2 minutes or so.
Capacitors also typically have better surge capabilities.
Whether batteries or caps, this is where most of the materials expense is.
I haven't read any discussion on skin effect for current carrying capability of various gauge copper wire at high frequencies/risetimes. This would be particularly interesting though frequency isn't really the factor so much as the very fast risetimes involved with these circuits hence some consideration for Litz wire.
It's been several years since I made an SSG and I would like to pick up in the direction Mike and others are going here.
I appreciate all the great work and generosity with information from those working here.

RichardG

The batteries are always believed to be necessary because of the nature of their chemistry and how they convert the potential to charge separation. It's a much different process than charging capacitors where you typically have none of that.

That being said, I don't want to rule out capacitors totally because capacitors can be conditioned as well. Delivering high voltage spikes to capacitors, spikes much higher in voltage than the capacitor is meant for can change the properties of the dielectric constant of the materials where they start to behave like electrets and no matter how many times you short them out, they spring back to the original voltage over and over.

Around 2002 or so, I discovered this with some AC microwave over caps I was using as DC caps. I ran a Sony Capstan (reel to reel motor) on an SG circuit - 2 coils power and 2 coils recovery. Recover spikes were going to this capacitor. I originally had a SCR from that cap to a secondary battery trigged by a neon so when it hit about 100 volts, neon flashed and triggered SCR to dump that cap to a battery. This happened for countless hours over weeks with my experiments. With other experiments I was charging it to several hundred volts. At one point, I was shorting it out and if the cap was at 150 vdc, it would instantly spring right back up to 150 vdc. It was astounding.

Around 2007-2008, I ran a 2000 turn Bedini SG trifilar solid state with an RCA 3055 and the 3rd recover winding was charging a Mallory 33000 uf 60vdc cap (pretty close to that from my recollection) - the silver soda can size caps. I had a different kind of recovery circuit there to feed the cap back to the front side cap (I didn't use batteries) so the back cap could see the front but the front side circuit couldn't see the back or it wouldn't work right. I posted that circuit long ago here in this forum, nobody was interested so I'm not going to discuss it anymore. In any case, I conditioned those caps ahead of time with ignition coil output spikes using an Imhotep relay oscillator (posted in this forum) and was literally charging/conditioning those caps with ignition coils spikes from 12v input to whatever the output was. Same thing - their tendency to want to jump up in voltage to where they were was definitely there, the trifilar solid state SG self ran. I charged the input to maybe 5-10 volts or whatever, ran it and although I got nothing useable out of it, the RCA 3055 would continue to self-oscillate (not forced oscillate) that circuit until it was down to like 0.2 or less volts - you can look up those transistors and they should be able to run on that low of voltage but in any case, the input cap went down, output cap went up then it hit an equilibrium and the input cap started to come up on its own and would just stay there as long as I had it on. The output cap was tied to a ground rod as well.

I have other cap conditioning experiences with this and it is a whole area that needs more research. I'm not the only one that knows about this. Bedini used it to his advantage. In the SG and related circuits that charged a cap for cap dump purposes with his comparator cap discharge circuits or other simple cap dump methods, all the spikes going to those caps to "forward convert" that potential to something positive so the batteries were compatible with normal hot current chargers, they had developed a pretty good self charging effect that augmented the total charge that was above what came from the circuit - yet another gain mechanism that I didn't mention because we're not doing cap dump with the RPG systems.

Bottom line - use batteries because it's a known.

For caps, supercapacitors, graphene batteries don't exist they're all capacitors in reality - do they have the ability to be conditioned like this? I don't know but would be interested in finding out and that would be worthy of a whole other thread so it's not off topic here and if they can be conditioned to have this bounce back effect, then you have a whole other light weight option. Yes, caps will rebound a bit on their own when shorted but a tiny fraction of the rebound I'm talking about when conditioned with high voltage spikes.

I'd use fat wire for all power connections, etc. for as low of resistance as possible.

[Energy_Hack]

Aaron and others,

Thanks for the detailed comments. I'm familiar with the standard Bedini theory of batteries staying charged up but I focused on measurable power recovery in my RPG replication since Mike detailed in the 2020 presentation that output was measurably greater than input. This point caught my interest and was the target I was driving toward.

However, after studying his scope trace, and being unable to replicate the results, I concluded that he had the current probe in the wrong location and was in fact measuring power in and out of the coil before the switch.

If one measures power IN to a coil and compares to power OUT of a coil, they will find the OUTPUT is greater due to the recovery of the magnetic field collapse. However, most of this recovered power is going to drive battery ground and only what passes after the switch closes goes to the recovery battery (+). If I may post a few screen shots from that 2020 demonstration, you can see the spike on the right side of the curve for the OUTPUT wave (current measurement), which tells me he's measuring BEFORE the diode at the output of the coil and input to the switch. If it was measured AFTER the diode, the spike would be on the Left of the curve, not the right.

So there is a good possibility that his measured power recovery is less than 100%, which would be the same as many other experimenters' results.

If the batteries stay charged up regardless of the measured power recovery, then it's a moot point. If the machine has (5) 100-Ah batteries and pulls 20A's, then even at 25% recovery, the batteries should be dead after 12 hours and Mike's 2021 presentation shows the machine running for 8 hours with no significant change in voltage. (however, they are running under 12 volts each (57.9/5 = 11.58v) and not exactly "charged up" but if this system has run for hundreds of hours then who can argue there is not an energy gain.)

Additionally, he's getting over 150 watts of output power from the machine shaft during the 8-hour run.

EH

[jettis]

EH

From what I can gather the mosfet turns on and off so abruptly, low nanosecond range, that Mike is able to get 2400 volts in flyback at 60 volts.

IMG_4463.jpeg



IMG_4465.jpeg

Even though the batteries are in a low state of charge at 57.9 volts, for a 5 12 volt batteries in series, and yet the machine was able to keep the batteries charged (flat lined, voltage never dropped or never climbed, in a 6 hour period at 11.84 amps at 58 volts). The red trend line is average voltage and green trend line is average amperage draw. Gold trend, square wave is the battery swapping trend, swapping every 3 minutes. Quite impressive by any standard. The purple trend, moving up and down is the machine rpm, it is showing a variance of 1 rpm at 2400 revolution’s per minute. Very sensitive measurement.

Paul Babcock also explains that the blue and light blue trends are the ac output of the generator that the motor is also turning and lighting 5 incandescent light bulbs during this test.

According to my calculations, based upon the above data logger pics, when the circuit is closed loop it is circulating at least 700 watts, with no losses in battery voltage… I assume that is only when the circuit is on, is when it is closed loop. So if that is the case 72.4 amp hours @ 58 volts (4200 watt hours) removed from the bank during the 6 hour logged run and the test began with depleted batteries to begin with and also had no appreciable voltage drop for the 6 hour duration of the test.

Pretty amazing.

IMG_4466.png
Paul talks about this, I posted a time stamp of where in the video he talks about some of these points.


Dave Wing

[rs__]

Auto batteries should not be discharged below 12.0V, as that hurts them, and makes them harder to re charge to 15V+

If you have conditioned a battery with many cycles, and it will stand at 13V+ for an hour, then stop the discharge at 12.2V and after a few cycles it will stand at 13.2V. They will reach 16V+ easier during charging. When they reach this state they are Very Desulphanted. Then you can "steal the surface charge to power the unit for a short while" and do quick swap outs to do that powering....

[jettis]

IMG_4470.png
This is the motor.

IMG_4472.png
The white box is the generator running off the motor, lighting the light bulbs.