Reactive Power Generator (RPG) Replication Project

[jettis]

Auto batteries should not be discharged below 12.0V, as that hurts them, and makes them harder to re charge to 15V+

If you have conditioned a battery with many cycles, and it will stand at 13V+ for an hour, then stop the discharge at 12.2V and after a few cycles it will stand at 13.2V. They will reach 16V+ easier during charging. When they reach this state they are Very Desulphanted. Then you can "steal the surface charge to power the unit for a short while" and do quick swap outs to do that powering....

RS I agree my deep cycles rest at 13.2 as well. Once they are conditioned they charge up 15-20 percent faster and they also deliver their current at a higher voltage for the same load. Also I have seen that once you remove the fully charged batteries from the pulse charging system, after they are fully charged it can take many minutes for them to fall from 16 volts to 14 volts. It may even take a day or so to fully come to a complete resting voltage close to 13.2 volts.

It would be interesting to see the results using fully conditioned batteries, by completing at least 5 pulse charge and discharge cycles, then put those battery banks into full swapping service after conditioning took place.

RS have you had much success with stealing the surface charge?

Dave Wing

[Energy_Hack]

Dave,

I agree with your calcs - over a (6) hour period the machine would have used around 4200 watt-hours but if 25% of the power is being returned, then really only (0.75*4200=3150 watt hours) were pulled from the batteries. Each 12v batt should have around 1200 watt-hours (assuming they are 100Ah batts), if he has 10 of them, total capacity is 12,000 watt hours and he would have reduced that by (3150/1200)*100 = 26%

Mike mentioned to me in a private email that he'd pulled 680 Ah from his battery banks to date. That was a year ago and maybe the number is much higher now. But if the bank holds 1000 Ah (10 x 100Ah batts) and 680 was used (minus the 25% returned in flyback = 510Ah used), then having the batts running voltage around 11.59v would be about right. They are about 1/2 discharged. If taken off load they'd likely jump up well over 12 and maybe to 12.3 or thereabouts. When pulsed batteries are left to rest they often bounce up to abnormally high voltages but when put back under load the voltage quickly drops off. (that's my experience at least)

One other note on the trace - the Y-axis scale is set to 300v DC so a small change of let's say 1 volt in bank voltage wouldn't show up. It would be better to set the scale around 10 volts to see if there is a change over the 4-hour run depicted in the graph. I could be wrong but that's what I noticed because when I run my own machine it goes up and down a volt or so when the battery switches and this one is dead straight for 4 hours which threw me off. (see attach clip)

It would be good to know if Mike has achieved over say 1,000 Ah into the machine and the batts are still running it. That would be the full battery capacity and would need to be adjusted for what was sent back via recovery.

EH

[rs__]

Dave, I have with various setups... but keeping it going manually was a bit of a problem in the early days....

it is the automation to get it to this point of quick swapping that has been the hard part for me...

[jettis]

Dave,

I agree with your calcs - over a (6) hour period the machine would have used around 4200 watt-hours but if 25% of the power is being returned, then really only (0.75*4200=3150 watt hours) were pulled from the batteries. Each 12v batt should have around 1200 watt-hours (assuming they are 100Ah batts), if he has 10 of them, total capacity is 12,000 watt hours and he would have reduced that by (3150/1200)*100 = 26%

Mike mentioned to me in a private email that he'd pulled 680 Ah from his battery banks to date. That was a year ago and maybe the number is much higher now. But if the bank holds 1000 Ah (10 x 100Ah batts) and 680 was used (minus the 25% returned in flyback = 510Ah used), then having the batts running voltage around 11.59v would be about right. They are about 1/2 discharged. If taken off load they'd likely jump up well over 12 and maybe to 12.3 or thereabouts. When pulsed batteries are left to rest they often bounce up to abnormally high voltages but when put back under load the voltage quickly drops off. (that's my experience at least)

One other note on the trace - the Y-axis scale is set to 300v DC so a small change of let's say 1 volt in bank voltage wouldn't show up. It would be better to set the scale around 10 volts to see if there is a change over the 4-hour run depicted in the graph. I could be wrong but that's what I noticed because when I run my own machine it goes up and down a volt or so when the battery and this one is dead straight for 4 hours which threw me off. (see attach clip)

It would be good to know if Mike has achieved over say 1,000 Ah into the machine and the batts are still running it. That would be the full battery capacity and would need to be adjusted for what was sent back via recovery.

EH

Thanks for sharing your thoughts…you are right, I forgot about two banks.

If Mike started the 6 hour test at 60 volts and it dropped to 58 volts after 6 hours, that is impossible by conventional means. Note: 60 volts to start is an assumption at this point.

The flyback from fast switching is not 300-400 volts, it is 2400 volts. I would think this would have an enhanced effect on the batteries.

In my honest opinion, I believe there is enough evidence to suggest it is legit, if the batteries were resting at 60 volts prior to the 6 hour run…it is real.

Paul said during the testing, chart we are looking at, the battery voltage never changed. To me the chart still shows no decline in voltage, you should still be able to detect a slight decline, in battery voltage, when looking at the trend, even at the 300 volt scale.




Dave Wing

[Donald Haas]

2 banks of 12v x 5, 100Ah batts in series would provide 200Ah @60V

In parallel - 1000Ah. @12V

Is this correct?

200/11.5=17.39..........

Large car batts are more in the range of 50-70Ah

My 650cca batts are rated at 55Ah.

bro d

[jettis]

Donald you are correct about the capacity of those battery banks being 200ah total for both banks at 60 volts, if they are 100 amp hour batteries. Those are marine batteries, starter/deep cycle, dual purpose if you will.

This book is an excellent resource on batteries, I sure most have seen this book posted on these forums over the course of time

THE AUTOMOBILE STORAGE BATTERY ITS CARE AND REPAIR 1922 0. A. WITTE. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2971...-h/29718-h.htm


Dave Wing

[bistander]

2 banks of 12v x 5, 100Ah batts in series would provide 200Ah @60V

In parallel - 1000Ah. @12V

Is this correct?

200/11.5=17.39..........

Large car batts are more in the range of 50-70Ah

My 650cca batts are rated at 55Ah.

bro d

"Is this correct?
200/11.5=17.39.......... "

No.

It appears you divide 200Ah by 11.5V resulting in 17.39.

17.39 units of what? Ah/V? 'Ampere hour per volt' is nonsensical. Like 'hour per ohm'.

bi

[Energy_Hack]

2 banks of 12v x 5, 100Ah batts in series would provide 200Ah @60V

In parallel - 1000Ah. @12V


Bro D and Dave,

You guys are right - 2 banks @ 60V ea. would be 100Ah PER BANK comprised of (5) batts, (not 500 Ah as I stated above.. my mistake!)

Mike reported 680 Ah used (without charging batts)... 50% of the time on one bank and 50% on the other... so 340Ah PER BANK..

Even though his batteries are slowly losing voltage, his machine has been able to get 340Ah out of a bank with 100Ah capacity.

That's significant - 3.4X rated capacity

Bro D, you may consider the following test..
1) charge up your batts to Full before starting and record your Ah capacity at 60v.
2) Run the motor and record Amps powering the unit
3) Record the Hours run
4) Sounds like you have 55Ah capacity @ 60v.... if your supply Amperage is 5amp, they should not be able to run more than 11 hours...
5) If your machine can run > 11 hours before batts die, you're proving the batteries are being recharged by MORE than the measurable amount of power in the Flyback.

-EH

[Aaron]

My 650cca batts are rated at 55Ah.

Where did you get the 55Ah rating for a 650cca starter battery?

[Donald Haas]

"It appears you divide 200Ah by 11.5V resulting in 17.39."

200Ah capacity divided by 11.5Amp draw, resulting in 17.39 hours till batteries are depleted.

bro d

[Aaron]

"It appears you divide 200Ah by 11.5V resulting in 17.39."

200Ah capacity divided by 11.5Amp draw, resulting in 17.39 hours till batteries are depleted.

bro d

It works different than that for lead acids.

The amp hour rating is based on 20 hour discharges.

200ah / 20 hours = 10 amps - so that means that 200ah lead acid can deliver 10 amps for 20 hours

There is a 10 and 5 hour rating where you can get more amps but you won't realize the full 20 hour capacity.

At the 10 hour rating, you get about 90% of the 20 hour Ah rating so 200ah at 10 hours = 180ah capacity. 180ah / 10 = 18 amps for 10 hours

A the 5 hour rating, you get about 80% of the 20 hour Ah rating so 200ah at 5 hours = 160ah capacity. 160 / 5 = 32 amps for 5 hours

So, If you have 200ah and you are pulling 11.5 amps, you're bit more than the 20 hour rating but close enough so you can pull 11.5 amps for probably 19 hours.

[Aaron]

p.s. those Ah ratings are ONLY for deep cycles because they have thick plates for low current over long extended times.

There is no real relationship between cca and Ah capacity if you're using starter batteries. Even if you do estimate an ah from cca, as I mentioned before we just ballparked 1/10th of cca as ah.

The plates in starter batteries are way too thin so you'll never get a real discharge relating to the Ah since they're intended for high current for short bursts.

Whatever the Ah rating estimate you have for a starter battery cca rating, it's going to be significantly less than the deep cycle math.

[Aaron]

If anyone here has not seen Peter's presentations Battery Secrets and Battery Rejuvenation, you really should watch them as they are the most definitive and authoritative presentations on lead acid batteries. It's required study in my opinion. Bedini said more than once that the SG was to study how a battery likes to get charged. Not exclusively but that is an important enough statement to learn what nearly $2 Million dollars showed us all back then during the development of the Bedini chargers. To get that kind of knowledge for next to nothing is beyond priceless.

https://emediapress.com/shop/battery-secrets/

https://emediapress.com/shop/battery-rejuvenation/

[Aaron]

Where did you get the 55Ah rating for a 650cca starter battery?

If you have a 650cca starter battery, I'd ballpark a 65Ah.

65ah / 20 hours = that can deliver 3.25 amps for 20 hours.

However, all those ah ratings are also bringing the deep cycle down to 10.5 volts or so.

A starter battery is 80% dead at 12 volts and you can't bring it below 12 volts without damaging it.

So you'd have to put an inverter on the starter battery that is fully conditioned at 15.1-15.3 volts and put a 3.25 amp load on it until it gets to 12 volts - you can wait until it settles down to 13.2 or whatever but it isn't charged until you get it to the low 15's. Then see how many hours that is.

That means the ah rating for the starter battery isn't based on 20 hours using deep cycle math, it's the hours you get until the starter batt is at 12 volts.

Then, I'd do the same with an estimated amp draw based on 10 hours and 5 hours being 90% ad 80% respectively of the estimated 1/10th cca for the ah rating.

Then you can use these discharge tests as your benchmark to know what you should get out of the starter battery at the amperages you're talking about. I think this is a good starting point to know what a realistic expectation is for starter batteries.

[Donald Haas]

"where did you get the 55Ah rating for a 650cca starter battery?"

I googled "cca to Ah" and found some formulas and charts.

That is how I arrived at 55Ah rating.

My batteries are Everstart Plus and the website says 750 CCA.

My battery label says 650 CCA

I googled the matter again and 2 sites gave the formula cca / 7.25 = Ah.

The pic is from a knowledgeable site that shows inexactness to conversion process.

https://www.advrider.com/f/threads/r...1469713/page-2

There may be test equipment for this.

55Ah for my batts doesn't seem right now. 90 is probably much closer. cca to Ah.jpg
Sorry that I wasn't more informed.

bro d

P.S. I'll print out and study post #74. Thank you Aaron.