Resonance- nice & simple

[rave154]

Hi all, just a side-track to my Rodin studies here about something thats been bothering me,

after watching this video demonstration... YouTube - Energy Propagation

when at the resonant frequency, there is no (very little ) current flowing through the primary as evidenced by the bulb going out, while at the same time there is 'full' current flowing through the secondary as evidenced by the 2nd bulb lit fully.....well......unless im missing something REALLY stupidly simple here....isnt THIS very situation what were all looking for??????????????

IE :- little or no draw ( current wise ) on our 'input' side....with a lot of 'Output' on the other side????

As far as i can see ( lets assume sig gen is putting out say 10V )....when at the resonant frequency, the draw on the input would be ..to all intense & purposes.. w = v x i = 10 x 0.001 = 0.1W

on output side w = 10 x 0.1 = 1W ( im assuming 10V & 100mA acorss and through the 2nd bulb as evidenced by its brightness )

so, this resonant system is 10-1 OU?

What am i missing?

David. D

[morpher44]

What am i missing?

For AC .. any discussion of power should involve
RMS -- root mean square.

Yes magic happens at resonance ... also a bit of danger .. which
makes it all the more fun.
Electronic engineers like to be close to resonance ... but not
exactly on it due to the danger to the components.

Its hard to make something reliable at resonance.

In my humble experiments with this sort of thing ... if you are
battery powered, you find that your battery voltage
is gradually dropping ... even though the current draw is low.
Due to the voltage drop, the "tuning" changes ... and
resonance is lost.
So a scheme that auto-tunes is required ... which would
involved some slightly more complex electronics ... and
perhaps a microprocessor.
Without "intelligent" tuning ... you find that more time
than not you are OFF resonance ... and power is wasted ...
which erases the benefit.

So I think the principals of resonance are well understood ...
and the notion of having "intelligent" tuning is not that difficult.

Scaling such a thing up to higher and higher power levels
can be a bit dangerous, however ... which again
screams for "intelligent" control.

[morpher44]

Mutual Induction in Transformers

w = v x i = 10 x 0.001 = 0.1W

on output side w = 10 x 0.1 = 1W ( im assuming 10V & 100mA acorss and through the 2nd bulb as evidenced by its brightness )

10 x .001 = .010W = 10milliWatts

You cannot assume the output side is also 10 volts.
Yes it is a 1-to-1 transformer ... but transformers are funny
animals. They are affected by the entire impedance.

The circuit is really not a simple resistor with infinite impedance at
resonance.
Rather, there is EMF and back EMF.
There is a phenomenon called "non-conservative fields" ... check out the thread I started for that ... and the MIT lecture.
The bulb on the primary side can fail to light NOT because there
is no current flowing thru it ... but rather because there are
equal and opposite currents flowing through it.
So the bulb may in fact have a large current flowing BOTH
directions -- preventing the bulb from glowing.
If there were two LEDs there, one going one way, the
other going the other way, you might see BOTH LEDs
lighting implying there is AC flowing through that point.
The incandescent might not light ... but two LEDs in either
direction would.
Electricity and magnetism does really really crazy things
and it is difficult to measure.
Also, let us not forget that current flowing out of a battery
is caused by an opposite direction chemical ionic flow inside the battery.
But when back EMF hits the battery ... that ionic flow can be
stimulated to flow back and forth -- which was Bedini's goal.

Mutual induction and the model for a transformer is complex.

The MIT professor insists that you must THROW-OUT
Kirchov's law in favor of Faraday's Laws to get the equations correct.

I am still very puzzled by transformers ... and I need
to study more on them.

I think mastering an understanding of transformers will make
things more clear.

I would suggest reading up on how electrical power is
determined in AC circuits...
and
Root mean square - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and
also about transformers and mutual induction
and non-conservative fields.

[Inquorate]

Nice, but what to do?

Looks great, any thoughts as to how to use the effect?

How do we make use of the apparent energy gain?

How does one siphon off that energy?

God I wish I had a signal generator - though a 10mhz xtal sig gen I do have..

Thanks for this rave. worth investment of time and experiment.

This would be great for simplifying the current in earth batteries as a parallel LC, and then to amplify the voltage with series LC circuit.

I think I finally understand what tishatang was saying now.

Love and light

[morpher44]

signal generators

Another thing to point out here is the difficulty with using signal
generators.
Signal generators are not simple little generators providing you
a nice sine wave.
They are a complex circuit with very specific specifications
that need to be understood with respect to your circuit under study.

You cannot put a volt meter parallel, and ammeter in series
to your circuit from your signal generator and expect to get
a good understanding ... necessarily ... of how much
INPUT power is arriving to your circuit.
If you do it that way, you will fail to account for the power
being BURNED up in your signal generator itself.

A better way might be to put a kill-a-watt meter on your signal
generator to observe the wattage that it is consuming ... since
that is your TRUE input power.
Anything odd that your circuit does to your signal generator --
with respect to back EMF, may
show up as additional wattage consumed by the entire system.
With a battery, the battery might charge ... but
with a signal generator, the back EMF might cause more heat
in some component -- like a diode or resistor ...and put
a power strain on your signal generator.

Back EMF can be desirable to batteries ... but undesirable
into a signal generator driven from house currents.

[morpher44]

Inquorate must a have signal generator

God I wish I had a signal generator - though a 10mhz xtal sig gen I do have..

@Inquorate

You've been doing some great stuff. Yes ... get one please. I think
it would really help you make faster progress.
I've been trying to get one on ebay for 3 months ... and finally
caved and paid double what I wanted to pay ... but still
10% of what it would cost new.

I think for this "renewable energy" research ... one that is
2Mhz max is fine. I'm very much interested in the audio
range ... upward to 200Khz myself ... since I learned
lightning has most of its energy from 100khz to 200khz.

I think there is still a lot unexplored at these lower VLF frequencies
because these frequencies require some out-of-the-box thinking ..
and are a new frontier really.

Another approach is to use your computer's audio output
as a signal generator.
The pros to this solution are that you can create some
absolutely crazy waveforms. Your not
limited to square, sine, sawtooth. Your only limited by
your imagination and your programming skills.
I have found the JAVA Sound API is as easy as PIE to produce
sound ... You can also use PortAudio -- technology deep down
under the tool Audacity.

The con with using your computer is that you run the risk
of FRYING it -- if you are experimenting with high voltage
or high currents and you haven't isolated things properly.
I really don't like that idea.

So I'm going the signal generator route. If I fry that ... it won't
be so bad. I'll survive.
Fry my computer though ... game over...

[sebosfato]

read my thread and you will understand more about resonance http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...eyer-true.html

[dragon]

resonance...

This is actually a wonderful subject to discuss and is probably the least understood. I started out about 6 months ago looking for a way to "recycle" energy by using LC's, primarily for heat. It began with induction heating and the tank cirucit simply boggled my mind. This led me to studying the LC's in more debth.

It would seem the more I learn about them the more I needed to learn and am still learning. These things are infinate in the way they operate... infinate in the sense you can find a multitude of combinations for L and C given the same frequency. But... there may only be a few that will exibit the results your looking for. I've heard it called a "black art" while hearding through all the information and from what I've found so far the name fits rightly so.

I ran into the video some time ago which was actually the inspiration I needed to pursue this. In my mind the bulb represented the resistance heater and with the circuit being at total impedance, drawing very little input was the clincher that set it all in motion.

I started playing with the parallel "tank" circuit with resistance in line ( RLC ). I was able to put together a circuit identical to the one in the video and it performed very well. I found other ways of doing the same thing with only one tank instead of using the mutual inductance and matching 2 LC's.

None of these projects were instant sucess, I went through many many failures before I got something to work the way I wanted or at least close. Here are some key points for the parallel LC as I understand it at this point...

All the energy in a parallel LC is from the input when you first turn on the system. As the cap charges and it is brought to resonance the impedance increases to near infinity thus "recycling" the same energy that was put in upon start up. There can be hundreds of amps circulating inside the tank with only a small amount of input. Utilizing the "recycled" energy is in itself another trick. A parallel tank operates at system voltage but the amps accumulate based on L and C... R changes the frequency by dampening or restricting the current flow as well as induces losses. Input replaces those losses but not as much as you might think... open for debate.

So lets look at the series LC for a minute... this is completely opposite from the parallel in the sense when at resonance the resistance of the circuit actually drops close to zero and becomes the equivilant of a short circuit or effectively a superconductor. Interestingly brings up alot of "what if questions" doesn't it....

The series circuit always carries the same current through the circuit but increases the voltage, also based on L and C and by adding R in the mix helps to control the amount of current it will see. This circuit is really interesting in what it does inside the components when it's brought to resonance.

This also brought up some questions about voltage and amps while I was working with the series LC... one was " can voltage be increased within a system while maintaining amps" and through experimentation the answer was yes. This was pretty exciting in itself but didn't seem to follow the rules and of course needed to be investigated.

So if you had a 120v input with 5 amps flowing through the system and you raised voltage through the LC to double that and pumped it throught the resistor you would essentially have a heater using 50% less energy than simply plugging it in and using the normal single pass ( in and out ) heating.

I put together a circuit to prove my theory that this could be accomplished and sure enough it can be done. It wasn't at perfect resonance because I simply don't have the money to go buying special components for testing but I did prove it could be done. It is not overunity and can be calculated.

So... another question came to mind... " what is the difference between amps and voltage - are they two separate entities or does one cause the other ". As you can imagine there are as many web sites as there are answers for this one... I came to the conclusion no one really know for sure. Which is good in the sense that there is an open door for discovery. I personally believe they are separate entities but each can interact with the other to enhance one or the other. Voltage seem to be more of a static component where current is more of a magnetic component. Correct me if I'm on the wrong track....

The heat circuit consisted of 3 components (L) a 49mH inductor, (C) a 96uf motor run capacitor, and (R) a 12 ohm wire wound heating element. The element plugged in normally would draw 8.9 amps and reached a temp of 1025*F. When placed within the Series LC would draw 5.25 amps and reached a temp of just over 1100 degrees. About 45% less energy than the conventional single pass electric heating.

So what would happen if you conected a series LC to a parallell LC... what if you used the capacitor as a common for the pair? I've played with it and the results are pretty interesting....

Can you manipulate voltage and current within the same system? Most definately.....
________
Honda F20C Engine

[nvisser]

You can download the soundcard oszilloscope program. It gives sine waves and other waves up to 20Khz.
Better than nothing

[rave154]

Thanks for the replies guys,

starting to make a bit more sense now

[Armagdn03]

Lucky for you guys, you have the creator of that video on this forum....me

An interesting situation is shown with this demo, which is not expounded upon in that video. Mainly the question of what does work? In a DC system, power output is equal to voltage times current. But the potential does no real work, the current is what increases when voltage is increased causing an increase in real work done. Because both potential and current are IN PHASE when one increases so does the other.

However in the system shown in my little demo, current and voltage are out of phase by 90 degrees. This means that while current is at its peak, 100%, voltage is zero. Conversely while voltage is at its peak, amperage is at zero. From here the math is easy, if current is the driving force behind the light coming from the bulb, and it is greatest when current is at peak, but voltage at that point is zero, and power equals current times potential at any given point, then how come peak output of the device occurs at a power = zero point in the oscillating wave we are observing???

[rave154]

ha !...... synchronicty and "internet angels" at work again.....love it.

Glad you were checking in :-)

does the 90 degree out of phase relationship still apply when pulsing with DC?... also....have you experimented with different duty-cycles when using DC?

David. D

[dragon]

Lucky for you guys, you have the creator of that video on this forum....me

An interesting situation is shown with this demo, which is not expounded upon in that video. Mainly the question of what does work? In a DC system, power output is equal to voltage times current. But the potential does no real work, the current is what increases when voltage is increased causing an increase in real work done. Because both potential and current are IN PHASE when one increases so does the other.

However in the system shown in my little demo, current and voltage are out of phase by 90 degrees. This means that while current is at its peak, 100%, voltage is zero. Conversely while voltage is at its peak, amperage is at zero. From here the math is easy, if current is the driving force behind the light coming from the bulb, and it is greatest when current is at peak, but voltage at that point is zero, and power equals current times potential at any given point, then how come peak output of the device occurs at a power = zero point in the oscillating wave we are observing???

Firstly, Armagdn03, let me thank and praise you for that most excellent video which I've watched over and over again. It was "the" most inspiring input that set me on my quest with the LC circuits, I'm sure I'm not the only one. I've been completely absorbed with these things since your posting of the video ( possessed may be a better term ).

I could be wrong, but the third element (R) creates an overlap effect (dampening) where voltage and current cross at some point possibly not exactly 90* out of phase.

I'm still learning so anything you want to share will be greatly appreciated... and absorbed. Any new video's that I may have missed?

Ed
Home Page
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Ferrari 333 Sp History

[Bob Smith]

Armagdn03,
I watched the video with interest. It seems to me that you are saying that when the coil is at resonance, its high resistance prevents it from allowing current to pass thru to light up the incandescent light bulb.

I would be interested in seeing what kind of wave form you would have with the LC as it approaches resonance. In theory, your SG should be able to provide the means for the coil to reach harmonic resonance at multiple levels.
If you are able to do this, then what happens to the coil? Does it retain its current-resisting properties or does something else begin to happen?

I'd be interested in your (or anyone else's thoughts/outcomes).
Bob

[Armagdn03]

does the 90 degree out of phase relationship still apply when pulsing with DC?... also....have you experimented with different duty-cycles when using DC?

You will find that you can achieve resonance with either dc pulse, or ac, if the duty cycle is 50%. There are many reasons for this, and you will find that dc pulse is no different than ac, the only difference is where you place your zero, or ground. (and whether its a nice sine, or square wave)

I would be interested in seeing what kind of wave form you would have with the LC as it approaches resonance.

Pure sine wave, as resonance indicates an equal and opposite interchange between inverse conditions of capacitance, and inductance, when their impedance equal each other for a particular frequency, you have resonance. Even if you drive it with a square wave, at resonance the scope shot will show sine wave.

here is a video of an excited LC structure (single layer solenoid, with both inductance and capacitance)

YouTube - pulse

In theory, your SG should be able to provide the means for the coil to reach harmonic resonance at multiple levels.

This holds true in general transmission line models of resonant circuits, however does not necessarily hold true in practice. With lumped elements (where most of the capacitance is held in a capacitor, and most of the inductance is held in an inductor) there tends to be only one resonant frequency which really stands out. When you are using a resonant structure like a single layer solenoid, where the coil represents all of the inductance and capacitance in one single structure, you will find many rich harmonics which can be mathematically described.

If you are able to do this, then what happens to the coil? Does it retain its current-resisting properties or does something else begin to happen?

Depending on whether it is a parallel, or series LC different things will happen. These two configurations are inverses themselves, and so have an inverse relationship. Start to learn about tank circuit (lc circuit) impedance, you will learn about its "resistance" at different frequencies, and there are many calculators to do the math for you.

I think the best investment a person can make on this stuff is a signal generator and a scope, I picked my first set up way back when on ebay for less than 150$ total. You can do countless small experiments which will teach you much more than you could hope to learn trolling the internet, and will also give you direction in your end goal of power generation. Its hard build devices the principles of which remain a mystery to the person who is trying to build them.