Canceling self-induction in electromagnets

[iulian07]

I have been studying for a while the concept of canceling self-induction in electromagnets. This, in my oppinion, is the Holy Grail of highly energy efficient machines. The idea is to make an electromagnet be part of a LC circuit. At resonance XL (inductive reactance) and XC (capacitive reactance) are equal and opposite, so they "cancel" each other out, making the overall impedance the pure ohmic resistance of the conductor itself. This would increase the overall efficiency of the electromagnet assembly (be it in a motor or elsewhere). If you want to read more about this, patent US 512'340 is all about that (you have it attached) and also "The Inventions, Researches, and Writings of Nikola Tesla", "On electrical resonance" section of the book.

I have tryed using all kind of motor electromagnets and capacitor combinations but I can't seem to attain the desired effect (canceling of self induction). There is allways higher than ohmic resistance impedance in the circuits. It is important to mention that I have used coil+capacitor assemblies with the coils having inductance of at least 50mH (Examples: 350W Three phase induction motor coils, 100W Monophase induction motor coils, relay coils, etc). I say this because Nikola Tesla in US 512'340 made the capacitor, part of the coil itself, thru a very interesting winding of it. I haven't tryed that aproach, yet. That should hold some promise.

Anyway I write this because I have hit a wall and I hope that toghether we can pass thru it.



Regards,

Julian

[JenkoRun]

There's not lot of detail to work with here, off the top of my head these are some possible factors that come to mind:

Ensure your oscillator circuit is impedance matched to the driving circuit, for example a function generator has an impedance of 50 Ohms so your circuit should have an impedance of 50 Ohms to match.

Are you trying to run an inductive or resistive load? This approach only works with resistive loads, you need another trick for inductive loads.

What gauge wire are you using? Thinner than 20 gauge is where the losses per foot really start to go up, try playing around with the values of the reactive components and the Q factor.

Make sure your circuit isn't surrounded by a bunch of other parts in close proximity on your work bench, parasitic effects.

Is your circuit a series or parallel tank?

It's worth noting that the bifilar coil patent was filed in 1893, a year after Tesla basically moved on from classic AC to the unidirectional disruptive discharges, when he speaks of alternating currents and potentials after 1892 he's typically talking about varying unidirectional discharge currents rather than the AC we use today, so using that coil with classical AC may not be what he had in mind for it:

http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1892-12-21.htm
https://youtu.be/TttHkDRuyZw?t=2606

These may also be helpful:
https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelv...ries_Resonance
https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelv...llel_Resonance

Extra note: In my opinion relying on resonance to avoid the effects of self induction and back-emf is a rather limited road, I'd look into ways to induce the load circuit without tapping from the source circuit directly, indirect tapping, you'll also be able to power inductive loads without ruining the resonant operation in this manner.

[iulian07]

Hello Jenko and thank you for engaging in this discussion,

Ensure your oscillator circuit is impedance matched to the driving circuit, for example a function generator has an impedance of 50 Ohms so your circuit should have an impedance of 50 Ohms to match.

I tryed that and it doesn't help.

Are you trying to run an inductive or resistive load? This approach only works with resistive loads, you need another trick for inductive loads.

I haven't even gotten to that part. We simply have a LC circuit. That's it. But if I succed, one of the ideas is to use the magnetic field from the electromagnet (the L from the LC circuit) in a reluctance motor.

What gauge wire are you using? Thinner than 20 gauge is where the losses per foot really start to go up, try playing around with the values of the reactive components and the Q factor.

I use less than 20 gauge. I use in one example a 3 phase induction motor coil which has 9 ohms and an inductance of 114mH. I could use very thick wire so the resistive loses are close to 0 ohms as possible. That was in my plan. Regarding inductance, capacitance and the Q factor I have tryed all kinds of combinations with no succes.

Make sure your circuit isn't surrounded by a bunch of other parts in close proximity on your work bench, parasitic effects.

I considered that also.

Is your circuit a series or parallel tank?

This issue apllies to both series and parallel LCs as the majority of Ls have the "problem" of self-induction and ultimately incresing impedance with increasing frequency.

It's worth noting that the bifilar coil patent was filed in 1893, a year after Tesla basically moved on from classic AC to the unidirectional disruptive discharges, when he speaks of alternating currents and potentials after 1892 he's typically talking about varying unidirectional discharge currents rather than the AC we use today, so using that coil with classical AC may not be what he had in mind for it.

This thing with Tesla moving from AC completly to DC pulses is purely a speculation. He actually states in the patent: "In electric apparatus or systems in which alternating currents are employed", but I have in plan using disruptive discharges to put into oscilation the LC tank.

Regarding the resources that you provided I can tell you that I have read most of them and watched all off Eric DOLLARDs videos that I could find including the one provided my you. As an electronic engineering resource I also use https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/, but in respect to what we are talking they do not help much.

Extra note: In my opinion relying on resonance to avoid the effects of self induction and back-emf is a rather limited road, I'd look into ways to induce the load circuit without tapping from the source circuit directly, indirect tapping, you'll also be able to power inductive loads without ruining the resonant operation in this manner.

How is this " indirect tapping" realised? Have you done it?


Regards,
Julian

[jettis]

Have you looked into John Bedini’s Ferris Wheel Thread, found here on this forum and looked into his 3 coils system? Also the zero force motor and window motor? If you are using iron core inductors in your motor you could try turning the magnets 90 degrees (on their sides).

Dave Wing

[iulian07]

Have you looked into John Bedini’s Ferris Wheel Thread, found here on this forum and looked into his 3 coils system? Also the zero force motor and window motor?

Dave Wing

Hey Dave,
Thank you for jumping in. I actually have looked into those threads years ago. I will give them a look again, the only problem is, like with most threads here and almost everywhere on the internet, is that they do not solve one problem only. Instead they go all over the place without actually solving anything. That is why I like to aproach things once at a time. For example, you mentioned John BEDINIs Ferris Wheel Thread. Well that machine is a complex of different ideas, that aren't all disclosed ( as per Bedinis statements), so for the majority of people it is worthless more or less, to follow that thread.
So, again, with this thread I am only after one thing only: the cancelling of self-induction in an electro-magnet. How do we do that?

[jettis]

I have not done what is spoken of below myself (with the two transformers), but I may in due time. I’m thinking that the images below reference this: TESLA PATENT 413,353 METHOD OF OBTAINING DIRECT FROM ALTERNATING CURRENTS. I have done and have been working with magnetic rectification for some time now. Hope this helps.

[iulian07]

I have not done what is spoken of below myself (with the two transformers), but I may in due time. I’m thinking that the images below reference this: TESLA PATENT 413,353 METHOD OF OBTAINING DIRECT FROM ALTERNATING CURRENTS. I have done and have been working with magnetic rectification for some time now. Hope this helps.

Interesting discussion. Regarding 413,353, somebody repatented the device years after that and called it a magnetic amplifier.

[jettis]

Here is erfinder’s youtube channel showing the output of his orthogonal machine…
https://youtu.be/7owyBGOpwzI?si=thUnSZzruYE13Hj9

[iulian07]

Here is erfinder’s youtube channel showing the output of his orthogonal machine…
https://youtu.be/7owyBGOpwzI?si=thUnSZzruYE13Hj9

The output on that looks nice. What can I learn as a new viewer of that video if he doesn't show any circuit diagrams, measurements done (voltage,current, frequency...),etc.? What is the purpose of that experiment ?

[jettis]

The machine is showing some serious output with little drag on the motor / generator. Years ago Steve (erfinder) demonstrated pulsed motor generator that when started would generate a waveform on an oscilloscope that increased in magnitude with every pulse, the machine became stronger, more powerful as rpm increased, current consumption also increased the faster it rotated. This is the complete opposite of conventional DC motors. If you look at the at the other videos he has, he demonstrates speeding up under load, a dead short.

The ultimate goal is to use the recovery from the pulse motor to drive a generator coil. Cascading the coils, master coil drives the slave of off the recovery. It is my belief Jim Murray gave a demonstration of this on the video using 150 watt light bulbs, the machine showed an example of true runaway when the generator coil was put into use. Also my belief is that this is the path forward and the big boys in the free energy movement are not talking much. Is this what you are looking for? l know this is what I am definitely looking for.

[iulian07]

If you look at the at the other videos he has, he demonstrates speeding up under load, a dead short.

I have seen the video, yes, it is interesting. But at the same time, the current goes up accordingly from 0.2 to 0.23A.

Is this what you are looking for?

Not exactly. I am looking to cancel the self-induction of an electro-magnet at a specific frequency. The idea is to make an electromagnet be part of a LC circuit. At resonance XL (inductive reactance) and XC (capacitive reactance) are equal and opposite, so they "cancel" each other out, making the overall impedance the pure ohmic resistance of the conductor itself. So for the same current that went into the coil before, you would use less power and less energy, simply because you have a lower resistance now and obviously a lower voltage needed to sustain this current. This would increase the overall efficiency of the electromagnet assembly (be it in a motor or elsewhere). That is the whole idea.