Joulethief SEC exciter and variants

[jonnydavro]

@Tectstatic.Hi Eric. I have had a look at your vid and links and it was great and you have indeed put a lot of time and effort into this project with results to proove.
Regarding my reciever circuit.There is certainly a gain by using a reciever tuned to the same frequency as the transmitter.Dr Stiffler does it with his towers you do it with your SRPT and i do it with my matched trigger coils so there is a variety of pick up options and probably plenty more which can interface with the lattice.I think Lidmotor had a solar panal acting as a reciever,figure that .
Synchro AKA Zebok posted on one of my vids that a radio basically does not load the transmitter and this has stuck in my mind and what really excites me about the whole SEC deal and i can see this also interests you.Lots of possibilities here.
Adding sec circuits SECRPT slaves syncronised to the master sec by a base ariel should extend and strenghen the field and is a must try.Dr Stifflers field strengh device shoud be handy for testing this so thanks for sharing that Dr Stiffler.
I hope your other projects go good and you can find time to pop by,once in a while.Thanks for posting Eric.Regards jonny

[Tecstatic]

Hi Jonny,

As I said, I can't help lurking, and also from time to time I try out some SEC stuff.

There is so much to learn and we have the 24/7 limitation. I guess you have a lot of knowledge about the interaction between coils and magnets, that is one subject I will spend some time on later.

By the way Don L Smith has also made a very powerful generator, where the magnetic field is disrupted by a small DC motor spinning a modified LP record, worth a look.

Yesterday I saw that DrStiffler has uploaded a lot of videos, so there is more food for thought, Thanks Doc

One more thing. Don Smith states he does not deplete the battery when the wires between his device and the battery are 1/4 wavelength.

Could that be the same for a SEC without filter connected to a battery ?

If I by accident should stumble upon something worth sharing I will post it

I enjoy watching the findings and experiments, so keep up the good and necessary work for a better future.

I look forward to see if you get the same SECRPT experience as me. Good luck

Eric

[amigo]

That's great, can't wait to see it.

Thanks,

Dave

Sorry about the short delay, I was out and about all day yesterday. Here are the photos as promised.

First one shows the spectrum when there's a 1N4148 diode between the Emitter and the Base of the transistor (as the transistor "protection" per SEC Exciter design)


Second photo shows the spectrum when a diode is put on the power rail (+), effectively blocking any feed back into the battery.


As you can see the above spectrums look quite different, and then some, compared to the spectrum when there are no diodes (below)

[Tecstatic]

Hi amigo,

Nice illustrative shots. Now your SA is in use, could I persuade you to take one more shot with a diode in the power rail, and 4 diodes in serial between base and emitter.

What SEC circuit do you use ?

Eric
PS. I can make nice colloid silver now using my SS Bedini charger, thanks for your help

[DrStiffler]

Hi amigo,

Nice illustrative shots. Now your SA is in use, could I persuade you to take one more shot with a diode in the power rail, and 4 diodes in serial between base and emitter.

What SEC circuit do you use ?

Eric
PS. I can make nice colloid silver now using my SS Bedini charger, thanks for your help

@Tecstatic

I think you want to see 2 diodes and one LED with a Vf of ~ 3.2-3.6, No?

The diodes and LED's or just diodes on the base are for regulating the negative pulses that occur there, so one diode will clip the pulse to ~0.7 volts and likewise two will not clip until 2*0.7=1.4~. So two diodes and one LED, like on the 18 boards, do not limit until (2*0.7)+3.2=4.6~ volts.

The limiting has a detrimental effect on Exciter operation in that it limits the possible CEC, although it is required to limit the damage to the transistor by Beta loss in the first few minutes of operation. The higher the clipping level the better will be the Exciter operation, but there goes the transistor Beta and when gain drops you suffer potential CEC, so you have a dog biting its own tail.

Looking at Exciter Spectrum's is a real challenge as any coil or tuned circuit in the area that has any non-linearity will oscillate and produce subsequent harmonics over and above what the Exciter is producing. Example is a coil which you short together by say twisting the end wires. If the connection is not solid the joint can act as a rectifier and there you go with another set of undesired set of frequencies. The area has to be known clean of external oscillation sources. I have picked up signals from coils some 6-10 feet away.

What one is interested in is to find fi or the initial or fundamental (highest energy content peak) then tune the Exciter for max of this signal and the appearance of a second peak that is pi/2 removed. If you do not see a signal that is pi/2 or at least 1.471*fi then as far a coherence it ain't gonna happen.

[Tecstatic]

@Tecstatic

I think you want to see 2 diodes and one LED with a Vf of ~ 3.2-3.6, No?

The diodes and LED's or just diodes on the base are for regulating the negative pulses that occur there, so one diode will clip the pulse to ~0.7 volts and likewise two will not clip until 2*0.7=1.4~. So two diodes and one LED, like on the 18 boards, do not limit until (2*0.7)+3.2=4.6~ volts.

The limiting has a detrimental effect on Exciter operation in that it limits the possible CEC, although it is required to limit the damage to the transistor by Beta loss in the first few minutes of operation. The higher the clipping level the better will be the Exciter operation, but there goes the transistor Beta and when gain drops you suffer potential CEC, so you have a dog biting its own tail.

Looking at Exciter Spectrum's is a real challenge as any coil or tuned circuit in the area that has any non-linearity will oscillate and produce subsequent harmonics over and above what the Exciter is producing. Example is a coil which you short together by say twisting the end wires. If the connection is not solid the joint can act as a rectifier and there you go with another set of undesired set of frequencies. The area has to be known clean of external oscillation sources. I have picked up signals from coils some 6-10 feet away.

What one is interested in is to find fi or the initial or fundamental (highest energy content peak) then tune the Exciter for max of this signal and the appearance of a second peak that is pi/2 removed. If you do not see a signal that is pi/2 or at least 1.471*fi then as far a coherence it ain't gonna happen.

Hi Doc,

Thank you for this very informative post

You are right, that of cause is what I would like, two diodes and a LED, just like I used on my PCBs.

Until now I regarded 4.1V to be the maximum allowed negative swing. So when you say 4.6V to be OK, that also means my SECs could perform a little better

The limiting has a detrimental effect on Exciter operation in that it limits the possible CEC

The reason for that is that a larger negative base voltage empties the transistor base region faster for carriers, thus resulting in a faster rise time, right ?

Sigh, I wish I had a SA, with all this financial crisis, maybe I could be as lucky as Amigo to buy at an affordable cost, maybe from a company closing down.

I also got a bit afraid of some of the older HP SA models, I saw on a forum the the oscillator was often broke and hard to get. There was a post from a former HP technician that confirmed this, he had repaired SAs for 20 years.

I wish you a happy new year.

Eric

[jonnydavro]

Hi.I had a little play with the Simple sec and I tried using two trigger transformers in series and also two transistors,collectors and emitters in parallel with the bases connected to seperate pans so they can be controlled individualy.I found that the twin transmitting outputs seemed to increase the wireless aspect and the addition of the twin transistors reduced amp draw and heat.All experimental but quite an interesting setup.
Here is a quick vid.Happy New year to all.Regards jonny.

YouTube - Simple SEC.Twin trigger transformers and transistors.

[DrStiffler]

Hi Doc,

Thank you for this very informative post

You are right, that of cause is what I would like, two diodes and a LED, just like I used on my PCBs.

Until now I regarded 4.1V to be the maximum allowed negative swing. So when you say 4.6V to be OK, that also means my SECs could perform a little better



The reason for that is that a larger negative base voltage empties the transistor base region faster for carriers, thus resulting in a faster rise time, right ?

Sigh, I wish I had a SA, with all this financial crisis, maybe I could be as lucky as Amigo to buy at an affordable cost, maybe from a company closing down.

I also got a bit afraid of some of the older HP SA models, I saw on a forum the the oscillator was often broke and hard to get. There was a post from a former HP technician that confirmed this, he had repaired SAs for 20 years.

I wish you a happy new year.

Eric

@Tecstatic
You are right on the care one must use to purchase used gear, yet the used gear in many cases is better than the new stuff. I have not been screwed yet, cross my fingers. I have received gear that did not work, but, the secret is, never buy from a dealer that does not offer complete refund (including original shipping) and at least a 30 day warranty. Hard to find, but they are out there. Now some of the used gear web sites will tune and calibrate (well worth it) and offer a warranty. Yes the price is about 20-50% greater than what ebay might be, but the gear works and is accurate. I have over the years only found two items that cost less after I had them calibrated to NIST. So the cal charges after the sale says to buy already calibrated, tested and with a warranty.

Takes time and indeed money which only the politicians have.

[theremart]

Mod to Sec..

I had an old drill battery about 13V charged and have run the sec with it a couple of days. Had been good back lighting. I have completed the dual transistor mod and seems to be doing an excellent job.

Have tried the aluminum tape on the battery and it does put out some, but I guess I need to play with this more as the lights are not lighting as bright as I see others on the video.

Are you guys putting a cap at the front of the sec?

Running an Sec 18-3.

So far the best setup for me is 9 leds. I have attempted using the Neon but have not got the charged state that others here have had. I am thinking perhaps it could be where it is on my table there is metal underneath the table I have and it has been a factor in other experiments...

Thanks Doc, for the innovative improvements to the sec.

Mart

[DrStiffler]

I had an old drill battery about 13V charged and have run the sec with it a couple of days. Had been good back lighting. I have completed the dual transistor mod and seems to be doing an excellent job.

Have tried the aluminum tape on the battery and it does put out some, but I guess I need to play with this more as the lights are not lighting as bright as I see others on the video.

Are you guys putting a cap at the front of the sec?

Running an Sec 18-3.

So far the best setup for me is 9 leds. I have attempted using the Neon but have not got the charged state that others here have had. I am thinking perhaps it could be where it is on my table there is metal underneath the table I have and it has been a factor in other experiments...

Thanks Doc, for the innovative improvements to the sec.

Mart

@theremart
I think we should move this to the new thread of Light Systems with Gain. This is not the locations for this discussion.

I need to see what you are doing (picture worth a thousand words). See you on the new thread.

[amigo]

Hi amigo,

Nice illustrative shots. Now your SA is in use, could I persuade you to take one more shot with a diode in the power rail, and 4 diodes in serial between base and emitter.

What SEC circuit do you use ?

Eric
PS. I can make nice colloid silver now using my SS Bedini charger, thanks for your help

Hi Eric,

What I am using is the circuit that's subject of this thread - JT-SEC.

Adding a diode to the power rail and to the base of the transistor will alter the original design, you know that. The circuit will not go into self oscillation by simply pressing the button on the base - there will have to be a continous connection from the base to the power via the 1Mohm resistor.

I will try to set this up tomorrow and take a photo of the spectrum.

Glad the CS maker is working well.

[jonnydavro]

Hi.Just to reiterate, the purpose of this thread is to discuss,modify and improove any type of circuit which produces SEC like effects using anything from ignition coils, plasma globes,torroids,transformers,joulethiefs,basically any circuit and combination which shows potential SEC effects.Many thanks jonny.

[amigo]

Hi amigo,

Nice illustrative shots. Now your SA is in use, could I persuade you to take one more shot with a diode in the power rail, and 4 diodes in serial between base and emitter.

Hello,

I took a photo of the spectrum when there is a diode on the power rail, and two diodes + LED in series on the base.



The following were the conditions:

1. The circuit was started by simply touching the loose end of the feedback winding. There was no resistor from power rail to the base.

2. The LED is only half lit meaning that circuit is not fully in tune? If one holds the loose end of the feedback winding then the LED gets brighter.

3. The spectrum analyzer was set to 10MHz per division as the range of interested extended beyond 50MHz (previous photos all had 5MHz per division)

4. The range of interest is the first 6 quadrants. The two peaks in quadrant 7 are always present in my neighbourhood, and the signals in quadrants 8-10 are FM radio stations.

[Tecstatic]

Hi amigo,

Thank you for the scope shot.

Assuming you have 10db per division in the 1/3 shots above and also in the latest here, then we see a large negative voltage swing is indeed necessary for the CEC. Abrupt switching is apparently one of the keys to high CEC.

If I got it right we got somewhere around 20db more near 50MHz.

The latest videos from Doc tells me one more thing to watch for considering the LEDs 18mA from the ALU tape:

The pan coupled bases can possibly reduce the transistor beta, and thus lead to wrong experimental conclusions. So those of you running the bases off a pan, please check the transistor beta to be sure they are OK.

Personally I will always use the 2 diodes + LED between base and emitter to protect the transistor.

Thank you once more, as your efforts lead to some very useful info

Eric

[jonnydavro]

Hi .Chilliqueen has recently posted a vid on utube of his super joulethief.The vid can be found here.
YouTube - Super Joule Thief - RLC resonant circuit.
This is a very interesting circuit as it behaves like a joulethief but does not use a toroid and uses two transistors,an npn and a pnp.Anyway by substituting the inductor for a 4kv trigger coil and upping the resistance to 3 meg ohms,you can get it to behave like a SEC,doing the wireless and one wire energy transmision.Lower resistances work too but i found 3 meg was good for my setup.
I used a 1.5v battery in an emergency mobile phone charger to run the circuit and it works really well and will light a neon which i forgot to show.You can use higher voltages but you may have to switch the cap.Here is a vid.Regards jonny
YouTube - chilliqueen SEC-wireless energy transmision