DC/AC Magneto

[wrtner]

Anyone have any ideas on the scope shots?

Do you remember the exercise of adding sine waves of
different frequencies together and getting a very different
output?

This scope output looks like the addition of two sine waves
of different amplitutude and frequency. If we can find out
what those frequencies are it might lead somewhere.

[ren]

Hi people,

thanks for your replies. Yes I do remember the heterodyning experiments. Was always fascinated by that.

Cody, I think you are right when you bring up magnet spacing. JB has taught us that there are hidden fields within the magnet, or at the least, the field is different to what is commonly presented in textbooks etc. It would be great if I could alter the magnets at whim and see if the field changes.

Ben I will check out that video, good spot on the mixed style waveform. I hadn't seen it like that until you mentioned it, but now I can see exactly what you mean.

Regards

[cody]

My bike wheel mono pole doesnt put out a pure sine wave either. You should not get that with an alternating pole rotor though, i think. I wish i could remember who knew a lot about it, it was someone on the forum. But either way, they were saying that farther spacing makes the wave do something and closer spacing makes it do something else, wish i could remember

The more i think about it, i think i can dissect your wave. Basically, from the link i posted earlier, we know that the wave is zero voltage where tdc is. So where the wave crosses zero is tdc, that means that directly in between the zeros of a wave will be the virtual pole, and that is exactly where you are seeing your funky form.

[wrtner]

they were saying that farther (magnets) spacing makes the wave do something...

I thought that a reason for spacing the magnets is to ensure sufficient time for the inductors to discharge (bearing in mind the time constant of the circuit).

[gyula]

Hi Ren,

I think cody answered your question on the strange waveforms pretty well.

I may add as an addition that your stack of the magnets (if you still used the setup shown in your very first post in this thread) actually faces the coil above and below of its central axis line so not only the distance between the core and magnets what counts (as cody mentioned) but the placement of the magnets vertically up and down.

Cody's other notice on a coil facing a magnet or placed 90 degrees sideways to it rings the bell for me to recall Naudin similar tests, see here:
The Mini-Romag explanation ?

rgds, Gyula

[Jetijs]

Hi Ren
I think that this is well worth exploring, I did experiments like this some years ago, you can read more about this and my results here:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tor-works.html
But the bottomline is that if you connect the recovery coil to the load at right times, leaving the coil open the rest of the time, there is almost no drag on the rotor and you can extract enough energy from the coil to charge up a battery, and my tests did this only one time per revolution, but I had 12 magnets at NSNS positions so I should be able to do this at least 6 times per revolution extracting even more energy out, the thing is that each magnet is slightly different, they strength vary and the shape of the field also, so you have to pulse the coil at right timing for each magnet, you can not get it right on one magnet and then just hope that it will work on all remaining magnets too, because the wheel is symetrical. I believe this is why Bill Muller used a microprocessor on his generator, to adjust the correct timing of each magnet, with a microprocessor you can easily advance or retart the riming as needed.
BTW, how do you keep your magnets in those plexiglass gaps? Glue? Mine just keep flying away at greater speeds, an electric tape all around of the circumference also does not do the job right, have not found any glue that sticks to both surfaces.

Jetijs

[cody]

Thats very interesting jetijs. So you never actually short the coil, it just gets hooked up to the primary battery at the right time and it still puts out HV Ive never tried it like that. I believe you are correct about the timing being important. I was thinking that it might be possible to use a bedini circuit to do the timing by adding a trigger coil to the generator coil, that way the timing is always perfect.

[wrtner]

BTW, how do you keep your magnets in those plexiglass gaps?

How about the half inch plastic tape used in building sites to bind
bricks onto their pallets? (NB. Sometimes the tape is steel).
www.ctrphotos.net/content/6220/thumb1.jpg

[ren]

Hi Ren
I think that this is well worth exploring, I did experiments like this some years ago, you can read more about this and my results here:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tor-works.html
But the bottomline is that if you connect the recovery coil to the load at right times, leaving the coil open the rest of the time, there is almost no drag on the rotor and you can extract enough energy from the coil to charge up a battery, and my tests did this only one time per revolution, but I had 12 magnets at NSNS positions so I should be able to do this at least 6 times per revolution extracting even more energy out, the thing is that each magnet is slightly different, they strength vary and the shape of the field also, so you have to pulse the coil at right timing for each magnet, you can not get it right on one magnet and then just hope that it will work on all remaining magnets too, because the wheel is symetrical. I believe this is why Bill Muller used a microprocessor on his generator, to adjust the correct timing of each magnet, with a microprocessor you can easily advance or retart the riming as needed.
BTW, how do you keep your magnets in those plexiglass gaps? Glue? Mine just keep flying away at greater speeds, an electric tape all around of the circumference also does not do the job right, have not found any glue that sticks to both surfaces.

Jetijs

Hi Jet,

Thanks for the tips Thats the general gist of this thread, how to extract useable energy from the coils without affecting the conditions that create it.

The fact that nearly all the "replications" of RFs generator coil only pulsed once or twice per revolution interests me. Why not more? Obviously, on RFs build, with commutator, it was just thrown together like this. But what if we can do more pulses per revolution?

JBs free energy generator (DC motor/Flywheel/alternator) was mechanically pulsed 1 for 1, meaning for every drive pulse there was a back pulse to compliment it.

I have 8 pulses per revolution from the SG circuit (only fires on norths) which leaves me plenty of space for experiments, considering there are 16 magnets. I will most likely start out with four generator pulses per revolution, and if this does not create any problems I will add another 4. There is even the possibility that it could fire on every magnet pass, given that the generator coils are separate from the SG coils, and that the output of these generator coils wont have to be timed to coincide with the off phase of the motor action.

As far as construction techniques go, I had the wheel router cut, with the recesses spaced evenly around the circumference. Once I got it spinning true (added a boss on either side) I built a jig for it, and filed by had all the spaces till I got a comfortable, slip-in fit on all the magnets. Using the jig I was able to space all magnets very well, thus keeping the air gap uniform.

I use 2 parts epoxy (aryldite) and apply generously to the recess before pressing the magnet in. I clean up the edges, and heap it up in a blob around the edge of the magnet. I still have to turn this wheel over and repeat to the other side, but so far every wheel I have built with acrylic and 2 part epoxy has held very well, Ive never thrown a magnet. Mind you I dont usually run more than 24v input, but even with this level the wheel is going pretty fast.

Oh and last but not least, another early construction photo to show the significant flywheel attached to the shaft. Its my old rotor off the window motor, and has recesses machined into it, previously for the magnets, but now Im thinking I can just add mass in those areas. Combined with the 500mm rotor it all adds up to some fairly significant flywheel mass. Put it this way, if I want to move the unit I have to take the rotor, shaft and flywheel off!

Regards

[ren]

Hi Ren,

I think cody answered your question on the strange waveforms pretty well.

I may add as an addition that your stack of the magnets (if you still used the setup shown in your very first post in this thread) actually faces the coil above and below of its central axis line so not only the distance between the core and magnets what counts (as cody mentioned) but the placement of the magnets vertically up and down.

Cody's other notice on a coil facing a magnet or placed 90 degrees sideways to it rings the bell for me to recall Naudin similar tests, see here:
The Mini-Romag explanation ?

rgds, Gyula

Thanks Gyula,

I think I follow you? Basically the air gap between stator and rotor is a variable, but also the magnets placed above and below the core (on the rotor) are influencing the waveform. IF these were further apart on the rotor, or closer together for that matter it would effect what we see on the scope as well?

Regards

[gyula]

Hi Ren,

Yes I mean like that. And I apologize for saying that without my exact personal test on your particular present setup, I do not want to misled you but I believe so from some other personal tests deduction and seeing Naudin's scope shots.

rgds, Gyula

[cody]

gyula,
Thank you very much for posting that Naudin link. I had discovered something using a similar technique but until i seen Naudins work i didnt realize what i stumbled across. I may post some info when i get the time to play with that some more.

All,
I have been putting together a model to test different parameters of these effects. I figured i would post some pics of the progress, maybe inspire more to join in and build some stuff I am using an old hard drive for my bearings, the rest is acrylic. Unfortunately I broke my magnets while trying to take a picture of them so i will have to order some more. There was some talk about how to affix magnets to rotors. I am using magnets with holes in the center and will be bolting them to my rotor with stainless bolts. Unfortunatly my model doesnt really allow me to add much for flywheel as Ren's does, i believe more flywheel would be better. My coils will mount to the top circular acrylic plate using a simple system of plastic thumbscrews so i can easily move the coils anywhere i want around the rotor at a variable distance as well.

[ren]

Hi Cody,

Looks great

Nice and neat.

Pity about the magnets.

Keep it up.

Regards

[Joit]

I did do a bit research today again about the Magneto.
Here is a slideshow from Restoration from a Motor.

For this Page i got a warning Message from google, that once there was Malware the last 90 Days.
So click at your own Risk.
Model T Ford Magneto Stator Plate Rewinding Service

But, am i wrong or are the Coils wound toroidal.
At the slideshow it looks the same.

1922 Ford Operators Manual

[John_K]

Just Subscribed

You guys have been busy!

I just subscribed to this thread. Gimme a coupla days to read all the posts and catch up and I'll see if I can be of more value.

I've still got a couple of generator coils to experiment with and now I'm a bit less dumber than the last time I tried. I'm pretty sure we can get this over the top.

John K.