DC/AC Magneto

[ren]

This thread I am starting will focus on methods to drive a magneto and short or collect extra energy from passive generator coils. I have 2 builds to test some theories and ideas which I will present here, Im hoping some others will come out of the woodwork or be encouraged to experiment themselves.

I am reminded of Rick Friedrich's experiment where he placed a large inductance generator coil on the same rotor and used a bridge rectifier to pulse HV out of it and keep the source charging. My experiment will follow along similar lines, however, at first, I intend to send any extra energy received from these passive coils to a load, or to the charging battery, not the primary.

My two builds will test a radial configuration, with triple stacked 40x25x10 ceramics. One rotor is a 10 pole all North, the other is a 16 pole NSNS etc.

I plan to use Bedinis circuits to drive the AC magneto to a high enough speed where I can see HV developing on the generator coils. I will assume the reader is fairly familiar with his circuits. Other methods to drive them may be discussed, but as far as Im concerned, his simple/effective SG circuit does all I need it to. I may throw a bipolar circuit in on a separate coil later, but for now I am focusing on two 6 filar coils, one of which you can see mounted below.

More information to follow, generator coils on their way.

Regards

[Inquorate]

Princess Leia

This is a nice counterpoint to your Vader window motor

does it work something like this?

YouTube - lenzless bedini motor - no transistors

But using these

UGN3503U Hall Effect Sensor - Jaycar Electronics

Instead of reed switches?

I'm looking forward to seeing her

Love and light

[John_K]

I'm in...

Ren,

Count me in. I had some success with Rick's setup a couple of years ago. I've got a few better ideas since I'm not as dumb as I was back then.

John K.

[ren]

Actually Ben, this is my window motor, or what is left of it!

The big window motor I built blew apart at one of the seams, no damage done, but the magnets werent going to be safe at the speeds I intended to run it at. So I stripped the rotor down in an attempt to rebuild it.....again

Unfortunately I saw no alternative way of repairing it for its original purpose, so I went about scavenging it for its parts. The large magnets are being reconfigured on the older rotor, I liked the waveform that one gave, and it went really well. That window rotor is ready to rock again, strengthened, and waiting on its bearings and mounts. I'll post some more pics of it soon. Its the old style one, like the one JB showed running off a capacitor but twice as long.

The Large window motor rotor that split has been remachined, had its magnets removed and now is mounted on the shaft behind the plywood backing you see in the photo above. So there is the original shaft from the second prototype WM, the bearing mounts and spacers, and the rotor itself, aptly named Vader by some due to its colour. Of course it has the magnets removed, but is still rather heavy, and functions quite well as a flywheel for now. Extra weight could be added in its magnet slots in the future.

So all I had to do was build a new rotor, which you can see, and start winding my coils. At present its running off a multifilar switching SG circuit, pulsing 8 times per revolution, as it only pulses on the norths. If I deem it necessary I will build a separate circuit to fire on the souths as well, but for now Im pretty happy with its speed vs input.

Spinning the rotor by hand I get 3 vac with a lousy air gap on one strand of the 8 stranded coil. Two wires in series for 7 vac, three for 11+ vac. This is all from a moderate spin by hand. When its going at full speed its much faster.

A full bobbin of generator coil only will easily yield over 30vac at speed Im thinking. More if a finer gauge is used.

Working on a second slave coil to fit @ 180 degrees from the master, triggered from said master. I'll build two generator coils to match after that. I was surprised to find that at top speed this 6 power winding coil only draws a little over 500ma. Its 6 x 0.9mm at 2.4 ohms a strand. Its going to be a 24v machine eventually, so a little less draw up front will probably be a good thing.

Cant see your videos at the moment, from the title of one I can tell you that it does have transistors, but most likely will not have halls or reeds. If I venture down the path of interrupting current in the passive generator coils I will most likely do it via commutation.

Regards

This is a nice counterpoint to your Vader window motor

does it work something like this?

YouTube - lenzless bedini motor - no transistors

But using these

UGN3503U Hall Effect Sensor - Jaycar Electronics

Instead of reed switches?

I'm looking forward to seeing her

Love and light

[ren]

Ren,

Count me in. I had some success with Rick's setup a couple of years ago. I've got a few better ideas since I'm not as dumb as I was back then.

John K.

Lol John. You were never dumb, but yes we have learned alot since those days. For a laugh I sometimes go back and watch my OLD youtube vids, back in the day where I used mech commutation with a micro switch to get something moving. Its good to look back every now and then and see how far you have advanced.

Look forward to seeing you here a bit more often mate

Regards

[elias]

Hello,

I have experimented with this idea before and it is something worth researching, but I have always wondered about the drag this type of energy extraction from coils has on the main rotor. I could charge capacitors very quickly by using this method.

Anyway I would be glad to see some good results out of this.

Elias

[ren]

Hi Elias.

The drag seems to be negligble on the rotor as shown with Ricks (and John.K's) builds IF the passive coils is pulsed.

Here are some thoughts I have been considering...

The rotor will be attracted to the core of the generator coil, no matter what we do. That part is for free, if you have a magnetic material as your core that is.

Now if the generator coil is shorted before TDC this may pose a drama, as the magnetic field of the coil could restrict the incoming magnet. But if it is shorted just after TDC, like in the SG, the rotor would be free to continue turning and may even speed up a little bit.

Of course you can also see some interesting principles in Thanes design, where the direct and permanent shorting of a HV coil actually caused his prime mover to speed up significantly. One of my good friends has already confirmed this.

I think the load that they are shorted into is just as important as WHEN they are shorted too. If we can interrupt current in these coils, then it is possible we can gather the disruptive discharge too. So the original shorting of ones coils could develop a kick, and the breaking of the circuit could return a large inductive spike as well, for charging a battery/capacitor or powering an external load.

Worst comes to worst and there is a slight stall on the rotor? No problems if its driven with the SG circuit. Load the rotor down, amp draw goes down....


Many things to ponder....

[cody]

Now if the generator coil is shorted before TDC this may pose a drama, as the magnetic field of the coil could restrict the incoming magnet. But if it is shorted just after TDC, like in the SG, the rotor would be free to continue turning and may even speed up a little bit.

Hi ren,
Wanted to comment on this statement you made. I believe that it should be realized that during the shorting period of the coil, all the regular laws of lenz law still apply. This means that if the coil is shorted during magnet approach, the field created in the coil will oppose the incoming magnet, slowing down the rotor. This also means that if the coil is shorted after tdc, the current created in the coil will attract the outgoing magnet, also slowing down the rotor. This is due to the voltage switching polarity at tdc, this is the ac effect present in all generator regardless of all N pole or alternating NS rotors.

I do believe that the lenz laws can be manipulated in the shorting coil by using proper impedance techniques, similar to what Hiens has done. If you look at some of bedinis schematics that use shorted dynamos, one of the pictures shows a variable capacitor, i believe this was used to tune the coil into that sweet spot. This area is one of my interest to so i may join in if i get the time. Good luck on your work, and nice motors by the way.

[ren]

Hi ren,
Wanted to comment on this statement you made. I believe that it should be realized that during the shorting period of the coil, all the regular laws of lenz law still apply. This means that if the coil is shorted during magnet approach, the field created in the coil will oppose the incoming magnet, slowing down the rotor. This also means that if the coil is shorted after tdc, the current created in the coil will attract the outgoing magnet, also slowing down the rotor. This is due to the voltage switching polarity at tdc, this is the ac effect present in all generator regardless of all N pole or alternating NS rotors.

I do believe that the lenz laws can be manipulated in the shorting coil by using proper impedance techniques, similar to what Hiens has done. If you look at some of bedinis schematics that use shorted dynamos, one of the pictures shows a variable capacitor, i believe this was used to tune the coil into that sweet spot. This area is one of my interest to so i may join in if i get the time. Good luck on your work, and nice motors by the way.

Hi Cody,

Thanks for pitching in.

One question.

What if the coil is shorted just after TDC and current can only flow one way (diode) in it as to create a field that opposes the magnet?

Im wondering why Rick and John K both noticed speed increases if Lenz comes into play?

Regards

[cody]

If you put the diode the way you suggest, then no current would flow at all, at least according to standard electronics which i believe still applies here from my experience with shorting coils. It would be like hooking up a diode cathode to the positive terminal of a battery, you cant get any current out of the battery like that. Here is a link that seph showed me that has taught me a lot. In particular, studying the output voltage in relation to magnet/coil position.
Basic AC Generator
You can see that the voltage flips polarity at tdc, so no mater where you close the circuit with the short, you will be producing an opposite magnetic field as described by lenz law(before tdc repels/after tdc attracts). Once you get your setup going, with a good rpm meter you should be able to measure a drag on the rotor in either case.

That is why i believe the effect you are describing of the rotor speeding up can only be described by proper impediance techniques such as what thane heins uses, only slightly modified for this shorting technique. To me this would suggest the use of either
A. a very long coil length
B. the use of capacitance with the coil
C. extremly fast rotor speed

Maybe you will have different results and i look forward to seeing what you come up with.

[ren]

fair enough...

Cody, all of this is just my mind ticking over with possibilities. Of course, some or even all of it could be wrong. I plan on using all three of your points above, or at least experimenting with them all that is.

Ive seen a number of people using generator coils on their SSGs now, and all of them are able to extract useful energy from those coils without hindering the "motor" action too dramatically, if at all.

Some more notes on my setup.

I scoped one of my strands of the 8 that are on the coil spinning the rotor by hand, and I got a wave form that you can see below (bad pic sorry). It is very similar to the scope of Ron Coles G Field Under load, seen here: KROMREY CONVERTER

Its almost as if the top of a pure sine wave has been cut off and inverted near its peaks. Its strange, Im still trying to puzzle it out. Included is a pic of one of the coils. 2.4 ohms on the power strand/s.

Oh, and I fired it up on 24v the other day. Works great! As soon as I have finished the other drive coil, hopefully this week, I will post a video of it running.


Anyone have any ideas on the scope shots?
Regards

[Inquorate]

Waveform

Hi ren, that is the Waveform I've seen with the sec.. I believed it to be a complex waveform, ie 3 or more sine waves superimposed on each other.

Very interesting, where was it taken from on Leia?

[ren]

(Leia, lol....your name not mine!)

Hi Ben

The waveform is taken with the scope on either lead of 1 strand of the coil, AC. The wheel is spun by hand. This is not the wave form you would see with the circuit running. It is however what the generator coil will show I believe, as my generator coils will be separate from the drive coils.

My first window motor which had steel backings behind the magnets showed an excellent, typical AC waveform. The next window motor which had NO steel inside had an unusual AC waveform? The coils were slightly different in geometry and alignment, but I wondered if the absence of steel in the rotor/stator has something to do with it?

Then again, if you saw it on the SEC.......


Interesting......


Regards

[Inquorate]

Complex superimposed waveforms

Here it is, I was hoping I'd gotten it on video.

YouTube - some scope shots of excited field # 2

37 to 39 seconds, but before that you can see 3 individual waves on the scope.

I have absolutely no idea what it means though.

[cody]

Very unusual waveforms indead I think that the wave can be altered depending on the magnet spacing on the rotor due to the virtual pole between the magnets, at least i thought someone was talking about that once. Not sure though. I have also seen somewhat similar waves from a coil placed with the outside of the windings facing the rotor, or rotated 90 degrees from its usual face to the rotor that is.