Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power

[gyula]

Hi Peter,

My simple answer is I do not know, I have not seen such in practice with scientific measurements. I hope it is possible.

See this link on your question: Review:Electric Motor Secrets DVD by Peter Lindemann - PESWiki

and Rotary Attraction Motor Update

Also the most frequented thread on this is here:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...r-secrets.html Reply #5 and some more replies from Peter L. further down.

The generator case is something different and even darker area in this respect. Sorry for this, I have no real info.

rgds, Gyula

[petersone]

Hi Gyula
Thanks very much for your reply,I don't think Dr.Peter's attraction motor is zero cemf,I will be shot down in flames for that remark!!!What do you think?
peter

[gotoluc]

Hi Luc,

You have good questions and I try to answer as best as I can.

1st question, yes I agree when a permanent magnet approaches a toroidal iron core the coil’s self inductance (wound on the toroid core) starts decreasing. This is because the core’s permeability starts decreasing (the working point on the B-H curve of the core shifts from the zero point, from the middle, to one of the saturating areas, and permeability=dB/dH).
The outside magnet field has the effect of a coil wound on that core and applying a DC current into that coil; magnet's effect on the core changes with the distance, like the amount of current changes in the coil.

2 question, the difference in the behavior of a small and high value inductance for a pulse is inherent in their individual time constants, L/R, where R is the copper (wire) resistance AND all the rest of the impedances (resistances) in series with that coil in that circuit you use the coil, and L is the coil self inductance, 10 or 1000uH etc.
Using the same input pulse (say 1V amplitude and say 2 usec wide) to the different coils, you would find the current may have enough time to raise to (say) 1 Amper for the 10uH coil but only a few milliamper for the 1000uH coil during the 2 usec pulse on-time. From normal AC theory
Energizing Time Constants of an RL Circuit - Learning Activity

you will see that a coil L/R time constant determines (just from the physical features how much the L and the R are, and Henry / Ohm gives time in second) the needed pulse width that is the best to apply on it so that a desired current should flow via the coil (you can see from the link that in just 1 L/R time duration the current is only 63% of the max possible that could flow in the closed circuit) and your input pulse width can govern how long the current is allowed to flow in the coil.

3rd question, difference in strength of magnetic fields of each and flyback energy, I think this is connected with the stored magnetic energy in a coil and it is (L*I^2)/2, (the current is raised to the 2nd power). So the higher the self inductance the higher the stored energy, assuming the same current for both coils to be compared. The flyback energy differences directly come from this stored energy quantity differences and for a given coil the flyback energy is always less than its earlier stored energy, the missing part is mainly governed by the copper (wire) and core losses.

On your last question of software simulators, well the realy serious 3D ones cost a fortune (like Maxwell 3D from Ansoft, Pittsburg for instance or Infolytica from Montreal Infolytica Corporation ) and the freely used ones are always 2D only, like FEMM, for this latter see here:
Finite Element Method Magnetics: HomePage

I think if you inquire for such EM softwares at a nearby university or you try to make friends with persons who can already use such softwares easily, you may succeed better in motor computer simulation.

So the big question for the eOrbo case is whether the reduced inductance of the toroidal coils due to the closeness of the permanent magnets is able to produce an extra recoverable energy when the cores come out of the saturation… this is what has to be tested, no amount of theory can answer it (conventional theory denies that of course).

Hopefully what I discussed was of some help.


rgds, Gyula

Thank you Gyula that is very helpful to me and I'm sure others will benefit from it.

I was thinking of setting up a ferrite toroid and magnet on a pendulum to study the Orbo effect. Using gravity as a driving force and different weights, release heights and magnet distances on the pendulum arm. This could create many different magnet flyby speeds and so on. The only thing I'm not too sure of is the coils uH value. What do you think of this idea?

Looking at the Steorn Orbo Toroid windings they look like they would be a very low uH value, something like 10uH or no more then 100uH. What do you think?

Also, I searched for an online L time constant calculator and could not find any but found some RC time constant calculators. Why no L time constant calculators?

Thanks again for your time and helpful information

Luc

[gyula]

Hi Gyula
Thanks very much for your reply,I don't think Dr.Peter's attraction motor is zero cemf,I will be shot down in flames for that remark!!!What do you think?
peter

Hi Peter,

Well, if you compare the attraction motor working principle to that of a conventional induction motor, then cemf cannot be present in the attraction motor in the sense it is present in the other because the coil you feed current into will not encounter induction from the rotor rotation. This is what is claimed.

Here we do not have to consider the normal behaviour of any coil that resists current increase due to the its self inductance, it is naturally present in any normal inductance and it is so in conventional motor coils too.

It is true that in an attraction motor, as shown by Peter Lindemann, just rotating the rotor by hand the self inductance of the electromagnet coil surely changes (you move an iron core in front of another core that has a coil on it and this unavoidably changes the coil's self inductance just like you would tune a normal solenoid by moving a core into one of its ends and this surely manifests during the normal operation of the attraction motor as if the electromagnet coil had a time-variant self inductance, this surely creates a kind of cemf in the coil itself but this kind of 'cemf' is much less than in a conventional electric motor.

So how do you think it?

Thanks, Gyula

[petersone]

Hi Gyula
Thanks for your reply,as the iron is pulled to the coil,it is in effect a magnet and will produce the normal cemf,imho. I'm asking as I am building a motor at the moment and it is self evident that there is no cemf,but it may not be very efficent,I don't know yet,it has elements of most pulse motors.
peter

[gyula]

Thank you Gyula that is very helpful to me and I'm sure others will benefit from it.

I was thinking of setting up a ferrite toroid and magnet on a pendulum to study the Orbo effect. Using gravity as a driving force and different weights, release heights and magnet distances on the pendulum arm. This could create many different magnet flyby speeds and so on. The only thing I'm not too sure of is the coils uH value. What do you think of this idea?

Looking at the Steorn Orbo Toroid windings they look like they would be a very low uH value, something like 10uH or no more then 100uH. What do you think?

Also, I searched for an online L time constant calculator and could not find any but found some RC time constant calculators. Why no L time constant calculators?

Thanks again for your time and helpful information

Luc

Hi Luc,

I cannot tell you by just seeing the Steorn motor video what uH their coil might be, it depends not only on the mechanical size and number of turns but their core's permeability value which may range from some tens to via several hundred, up to some thousand....
If you happen to have some uniform toroidal cores with any OD of 1-4cm in junkbox try to wind them about 90% fully covered with one layer of winding and check what current is needed from a DC source to let a permanent magnet clinged to it drop. One thing is sure the excitation created in the core is proportional with the number of turns and the current (this is the so called AmperTurns, I*N). You may wish to have a core with the smallest current to bring it into saturation, this minimizes the copper loss (I^2R). But in the end it depends on the core how much Amperturn is needed for its saturation.

I think the Steorn core may have a self inductance in the range from some hundred uH to several thousand uH, a wild guess for sure. Hopefully it will turn out what type and make they use. Naudin fully described his toroidal cores he has been using. Ossie also described what type he uses at overunity.com.

You are right on not finding any online calculator for the L/R calculations, I used the Internet Wayback Machine to dig out one:
RL Time Calculator

This still seems to work.

rgds, Gyula

[gyula]

Hi Gyula
Thanks for your reply,as the iron is pulled to the coil,it is in effect a magnet and will produce the normal cemf,imho. I'm asking as I am building a motor at the moment and it is self evident that there is no cemf,but it may not be very efficent,I don't know yet,it has elements of most pulse motors.
peter

Yes but Peter L. claimes the very very low air gap between the rotor and stator is the culprit for OU plus the collection of the flyback pulse energy.

Gyula

[petersone]

Hi Gyula
Well,it maybe a small air gap,and there is the flyback,but it's still a magnet aproaching the coil,as I see it.
peter

[gyula]

Hi Gyula
Well,it maybe a small air gap,and there is the flyback,but it's still a magnet aproaching the coil,as I see it.
peter

Hi Peter,

It is NOT a magnet that is approaching the coil! It is a soft iron piece that has collected a certain flux from the electromagnet, it is NOT a permanent magnet. In this setup it is the electromagnet which is the flux SOURCE, not the soft iron piece, this latter cannot be flux source in this situation.
If you replace the soft iron with a permanent magnet, things change 'dramatically' of course as the situation becomes a conventional motor setup case.

rgds, Gyula

[gotoluc]

Hi Luc,

I cannot tell you by just seeing the Steorn motor video what uH their coil might be, it depends not only on the mechanical size and number of turns but their core's permeability value which may range from some tens to via several hundred, up to some thousand....
If you happen to have some uniform toroidal cores with any OD of 1-4cm in junkbox try to wind them about 90% fully covered with one layer of winding and check what current is needed from a DC source to let a permanent magnet clinged to it drop. One thing is sure the excitation created in the core is proportional with the number of turns and the current (this is the so called AmperTurns, I*N). You may wish to have a core with the smallest current to bring it into saturation, this minimizes the copper loss (I^2R). But in the end it depends on the core how much Amperturn is needed for its saturation.

I think the Steorn core may have a self inductance in the range from some hundred uH to several thousand uH, a wild guess for sure. Hopefully it will turn out what type and make they use. Naudin fully described his toroidal cores he has been using. Ossie also described what type he uses at overunity.com.

You are right on not finding any online calculator for the L/R calculations, I used the Internet Wayback Machine to dig out one:
RL Time Calculator

This still seems to work.

rgds, Gyula

Thanks for the reply Gyula

You didn't tell me what you think of the pendulum idea to test the toroids?

That RL Time Calculator you found needs four known values to solve one not much of a calculator I was hopping to enter L-R & V and get the time result. Why is this not available? or what am I not understanding

Luc

[petersone]

Hi Gyula
Thanks for you reply,I know it's not a pm,but,to me a mag will only be attracted to another mag.it might have to induce the iron first,which to me is now another mag.if it can't induce it.brass,copper,ect.it will not be attracted to it.
If the coil was energized,and the rotor spun, I think the scope would go all over the place!!!
Thats how I see it
peter

[gyula]

Thanks for the reply Gyula

You didn't tell me what you think of the pendulum idea to test the toroids?

That RL Time Calculator you found needs four known values to solve one not much of a calculator I was hopping to enter L-R & V and get the time result. Why is this not available? or what am I not understanding

Luc

Hi Luc, sorry I forgot about it...
I agree with your pendulum test, it is good idea to check the saturation quality of different cores with different number of turns or rather with varying the pulse width or the pulse amplitude. In this test you can even use a reed switch to start the current, in this case the pulse width changes by the reed distance from the pendulum magnet, the amplitude changes by the battery or supply voltage applied to the coil via tha switch.

Re on the RL calculator: Yes it needs four inputs, fortunately it includes two current values, a Maximum and an Instantaneous Current and you know that in 'one L/R time' the relationship percentage-wise between the two is 63.2%.
(Iinst=0.632*Imax).

Unfortunately a software program you would need for entering L,R and V values only is not available, maybe an Excel program could be written, I am not a candidate for this, sorry. I think it would need many other, user and / or component specific data like switch rise and fall time, voltage drop across the switch, battery or voltage source internal resistance, switch ON resistance value, pulse duty cycle and so on and on... to get dependable calculated output data from it.

So I think your wish of calculating the time from L, R and V mainly depends on the duty cycle and the R copper resistance of the coil, these are the strongest factors in influencing it, neglecting most other smaller factors. Sorry for this, I am not a professor in pulse time calculations, I can contribute as my common 'technical sense' and other knowledge let me. 'Cut and try' method is the best here I am affraid.

rgds, Gyula

[gyula]

Hi Gyula
Thanks for you reply,I know it's not a pm,but,to me a mag will only be attracted to another mag.it might have to induce the iron first,which to me is now another mag.if it can't induce it.brass,copper,ect.it will not be attracted to it.
If the coil was energized,and the rotor spun, I think the scope would go all over the place!!!
Thats how I see it
peter

Hi Peter,

What I underscored in your above letter, is I tried to describe in my previous letter as the change in the coil self inductance when the core is changing like we tune a coil by pulling in or out its ferromagnetic core, ok? This is how I see it, this cannot be labeled as cemf, we all know what a cemf is.
I would call this a kind of "permeability modulation" caused by the rotation of the rotor, that is all.
I think the effect of this would manifest in a relatively small fluctuating current consumption which would avarage out of course. But it is not cemf but another unwanted phenomena.
The drawback of this phenomena would surely manifest in the capturing of the collapsing field, a fluctuating coil inductance, when pulsed, hinders the full energy capture possibility from the collapsing field. But Peter L. is surely aware of this and even so he claims ou for his attraction motor.

rgds, Gyula

[petersone]

Hi Gyula
I tried the following,put an iron core in a coil,applied 10v to the coil,conected the scope across the coil and put it all next to a rotor containing some iron pieces around the edge and spun the rotor,looking at the scope it would make a good genny,it looked like cemf to me,but thats only my thoughts.
peter

[gyula]

Hi Peter,

I assume you meant 10V DC voltage, right?

While it would be good to see the waveform and while I have not done such waveform test in a setup like you did I think the waveform is a more or less sinusoid wave sitting onto the 10V DC level? If yes, this can only be coming from the periodic change of the coil's core permeability.
Here I assume also you do not see any generated voltage across the coil when there is no 10V DC present and the rotor is still rotating.
Please confirm or correct me.

Gyula