Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power

[cody]

Hmm... so you think the motor is providing the dc triggering for the transformer primary. Well thats a great idea but it doesnt appear to me that that is the exact opperation in that particular video. Im under the assumption that he is using the core as a transformer(primary and secondary windings) and that there is an external triggering circuit not showed in the vid. I could understand using the motor with a rotor attached onto it that would provid a trigger signal to the primary transformer winding using halls, opto, reeds, ect. and then the motor inself driven from the secondary. But if your implying the motor is in series with the primary transformer winding and also running off the secondary winding at the same time..... well i have no idea as to how that would work.. but maybe Yes a dc motor in series would definatly provide a dc signal to the transformer primary.

Of course my assumptions of what he is doing my be wrong, he may just be using the primary winding on the transformer and have the secondary shorted to itself, in which case the motor probably is in series with the primary. Not sure, interesting stuff though. Any idea on how this may relate to your design or are we getting to far off course of your original thread

[gyula]

Okay,

here is the attraction vs repel mode video test.

Video Link: YouTube - Electromagnet Atraction vs Repel mode test 1

Please let me know why such a difference

Luc

Hi Luc,

I think I can answer the difference which is very very strange in itself indeed.

When the two cores are in attraction (either in close touch or with your small plexi air gap) the PERMEABILITY of BOTH cores are "seeing" each other to form a closed magnetic circuit (in case of the small air gap the resultant permeability is less than in the close touch case of course but still high enough for making enough attract force for pulling the cores together).

When the two cores are in repel mode, they do not "see" each other from PERMEABILITY point of view because the fluxes divert each other, no magnetic connection is taking place, hence BOTH cores behave like an OPEN core magnetic circuit, the previous amount of flux quantity cannot develop at the ends.

Putting all this otherwise: in attract mode the coils self inductance is significantly increased (due to the closed or the small air gapped magnetic path) and in repel mode the same coil's self inductance significanly gets reduced (due to the open magnetic path).
If you have an inductance meter, you may wish to check the self inductance increase (wrt the open core case) when you close one of the cores with the other core.

rgds, Gyula

[gyula]

Hmm... so you think the motor is providing the dc triggering for the transformer primary. Well thats a great idea but it doesnt appear to me that that is the exact opperation in that particular video. Im under the assumption that he is using the core as a transformer(primary and secondary windings) and that there is an external triggering circuit not showed in the vid. I could understand using the motor with a rotor attached onto it that would provid a trigger signal to the primary transformer winding using halls, opto, reeds, ect. and then the motor inself driven from the secondary. But if your implying the motor is in series with the primary transformer winding and also running off the secondary winding at the same time..... well i have no idea as to how that would work.. but maybe Yes a dc motor in series would definatly provide a dc signal to the transformer primary.

Of course my assumptions of what he is doing my be wrong, he may just be using the primary winding on the transformer and have the secondary shorted to itself, in which case the motor probably is in series with the primary. Not sure, interesting stuff though. Any idea on how this may relate to your design or are we getting to far off course of your original thread

Hi Cody,

No I did not think that (I refer to your first sentence above I put in red).

My understanding on NAli2001's test shown in his DCmagnetTransformer.wmv (recalling his much earlier tests years ago in connection with this test) is that he surely uses a switch (can be a bipolar transistor or a MOSFET, and this does not turn out from this video) to pulse a coil on a closed magnetic core (call this coil as the primary coil) and he runs a DC motor from the secondary coils (probably two coils in series, I am not sure but this is not important now).
So basically he made a power pulse transformer to transfer DC pulses to a DC motor. The important thing to consider is that the magnetic operation point surely gets shifted to well over or below the BH curve's zero point, and can easily reach even the saturation area of the core that manifests in input coil's self inductance reducement, hence input current increase.
When he attached the permanent magnet bridge with a certain pole orientation, he actually shifts the magnetic operation point back into the central area of the BH curve, hence the original permeability of the core is reset, current consumption gets reduced (coil's self inductance obviously increases).

So the reason he simply calls this a DC transformer test is that he switches the primary coil of a (closed core) transformer onto a DC voltage source by a switch and operates a DC motor with the transformer's secondary coil, then he uses magnetic flux from permanent magnets to re-shift the magnetic bias point towards the center area of the core BH curve, to get a more normal transformer effect as if it would work with AC current that has a zero crossing.

Putting the test otherwise, he demonstrates what happens in transformer when you excite it with DC pulses.

rgds, Gyula

EDIT

LUC: Nali2001 in the meantime wrote an answer to winsonali and discusses his "DC transformer" circuits very nicely.
see here: A truly overunity Transformer / Meg

[gotoluc]

Hmm... so you think the motor is providing the dc triggering for the transformer primary. Well thats a great idea but it doesnt appear to me that that is the exact opperation in that particular video. Im under the assumption that he is using the core as a transformer(primary and secondary windings) and that there is an external triggering circuit not showed in the vid. I could understand using the motor with a rotor attached onto it that would provid a trigger signal to the primary transformer winding using halls, opto, reeds, ect. and then the motor inself driven from the secondary. But if your implying the motor is in series with the primary transformer winding and also running off the secondary winding at the same time..... well i have no idea as to how that would work.. but maybe Yes a dc motor in series would definatly provide a dc signal to the transformer primary.

Of course my assumptions of what he is doing my be wrong, he may just be using the primary winding on the transformer and have the secondary shorted to itself, in which case the motor probably is in series with the primary. Not sure, interesting stuff though.

Hi Cody,

He does have what looks to be a pulse circuit (PWM) which you can see in the first few frames of the video. So I don't think he is using the motor to pulse the transformer. However I do find it interesting that he chose what looks to me like a PM DC motor which is an inductive load and not a resistive load (light bulb).

Any idea on how this may relate to your design or are we getting to far off course of your original thread

Good point lol... it's okay since this thread is close to its end as I have tested my motor on the vertical direction and it's behaving as a typical motor generator BEMF would using the 1 pound moved 1 foot in 1 second. I as up to 1 Watt after 6" inches

So, another good learning lesson for me ... hope it helps others.

Luc

[gyula]

Hi Gyula,Luc and all
Would it not be the case that with the rotor loaded to say half speed,the coil would be energized for twice as much time,but only half as often?Please feel free to put me right!!
peter

Hi Peter,

Sorry for not reflecting to your question earlier. NO need for putting you right, you have a perfect logic on the "half the speed-twice as much time-half as often case", thanks for insisting on the truth and sorry for my blindness.

rgds, Gyula

[petersone]

Hi Luc,Gyula and all
I don't think the thread is near the end,btw Luc,your build is looks very good,puts my stone-age stuff to shame,I was thinking of trying a biflar coil,used as a 1-1 transformer to see what happens when the secondary is loaded,useing a sine wave,maybe it will act as a normal tranny+some free movement,I don't think so,but maybe.Can any of you clever people tell me the best way to wind it,one on top of the other,or twisted togerther,or what?
Good luck all,have a good xmas.
pete

[gyula]

Hi Luc,Gyula and all
I don't think the thread is near the end,btw Luc,your build is looks very good,puts my stone-age stuff to shame,I was thinking of trying a biflar coil,used as a 1-1 transformer to see what happens when the secondary is loaded,useing a sine wave,maybe it will act as a normal tranny+some free movement,I don't think so,but maybe.Can any of you clever people tell me the best way to wind it,one on top of the other,or twisted togerther,or what?
Good luck all,have a good xmas.
pete

Hi Peter,

Wonder to deserve the "clever people" title I attempt to answer

Basically you wish to make a 1:1 transformer, wound bifilarly, if I got it right. This means the most efficient transfer needs the best coupling possible between the two coils, this can be done by twisting the wire pair. But the coupling is still good enough (you do not lose much) if you lead the two wires in parallel, very close to each other and make the turns that way.
Twisting the wires is mostly preferred when you make transmission lines for wide band impedance matching transformers where the capacitance between the two (or more) wires are important in constituting the line impedance. (The more number of twists you make per say in 1 inch length, the higher the capacitance you get between the wires). Back in the old radio times with valve radio receivers, so called "catwhisker" capacitors were made of twisted wire pairs of a few centimeter and the length was cut to reach the correct pF value. (if I recall the correct English term, English is my second language)

Regarding your need for the bifilar coil, what you will probable experience is normal Lenz effect... ?

rgds, Gyula

[petersone]

Hi Gyula
Thanks for your quick reply,I certainly put you in the clever people dept.
I'm sure Mr Lenz will play his part,I've not managed to get away from him yet,I can acept him if I get some free movement,but I don't think I will even get that,we will see.I think what ever I get, I will have to pay for it.
On a different note,hope it's not too of topic,I can see what is happening when a mag.passes by the end of a coil,normal sine wave,mag. stopped from coming in, and stopped from leaving,but in the case of a mag.on a rotor going along the length of the coil, a "funny" wave form which I can't work out wrt.lenz law,Naudin done some work on it,but I can't see his theories are right.If you or any others in the cpd.know the answers PLEASE let me know.
good luck all
peter

[CosmicFarmer]

A test I say?

I had an idea to use your "Back EMF"

Wrap another wire around the coil the same way the coil goes, on the outside, to a FWBR then LED. Maybe 5 wraps or so. Try to get the LED to come on with your hand power, then apply power and see what happens. I would imagine with power applied, the LED would turn on from the coil's field.

If the LED dosn't turn on using your hand, then your coil would be free of a majority of back EMF. I think a majority of the perm. magnets magnetic field is contained inside the core and for the most part is "sheilded" from the coil. All the action happens in the core. Like a roller coaster on a thin rail. a tighter grip on the inside magnetic field.

I think if you could harvest the coil's field on the outside by having the coil oscillate with walls on its outside, same theory as the inside core would work on the outside too. Completely enclose it and possibly use it as a compressor?
Brilliant coil.

[gyula]

...
On a different note,hope it's not too of topic,I can see what is happening when a mag.passes by the end of a coil,normal sine wave,mag. stopped from coming in, and stopped from leaving,but in the case of a mag.on a rotor going along the length of the coil, a "funny" wave form which I can't work out wrt.lenz law,Naudin done some work on it,but I can't see his theories are right.If you or any others in the cpd.know the answers PLEASE let me know.
...

Hi Peter,

I think you refer to this page on Naudin coil orientation tests:
The Mini-Romag explanation ?

I am not convinced either, on his scope shot at the right hand side the negative area of the induced waveform (under the zero line) looks pretty much comparable to the "big" positive waveform over the zero line.
He also says that on approach the flux increases in the left hand side part of the coil, then suddenly goes to minimum, this manifests as if the field would have collapsed and there is no magnetic coupling in this moment between the magnet and the coil. And this was tested by a diode that cut the total positive peak waveform still he found no drag effect. If this is really so, than it may be true that loading only the positive pulse over the zero line causes no (or a minimal) drag but the question is if you do not use the negative waveform of an induced voltage, (which seems as big as the positive one), will it be enough for ou? Surely tests are needed to run.

rgds, Gyula

[sebosfato]

good work
Now put capacitor in parallel and drive it at its resonant frequency...
go to high speed maybe 1000 hz
good luck

[cody]

I think you refer to this page on Naudin coil orientation tests:
The Mini-Romag explanation ?

I am not convinced either, on his scope shot at the right hand side the negative area of the induced waveform (under the zero line) looks pretty much comparable to the "big" positive waveform over the zero line.
He also says that on approach the flux increases in the left hand side part of the coil, then suddenly goes to minimum, this manifests as if the field would have collapsed and there is no magnetic coupling in this moment between the magnet and the coil. And this was tested by a diode that cut the total positive peak waveform still he found no drag effect. If this is really so, than it may be true that loading only the positive pulse over the zero line causes no (or a minimal) drag but the question is if you do not use the negative waveform of an induced voltage, (which seems as big as the positive one), will it be enough for ou? Surely tests are needed to run.

We touched on this a little in another thread, but i never really said too much so i guess here would be a good place to do it. Ok ill say what i know. I discovered that same effect before knowing naudin was doing it to, but i didnt know what i had at the time. I was not trying to to get a collapsing field, i was in the quest of a dc generator that required no diodes or comutators. Ill use these pictures to explain my theory and what i actually got when putting the idea into an experiment. In figure 1 and 2 you see the typical wave that forms over a standard coil as a magnet passes over the coil. Figure A and B shows my theory i had. What you are looking at is a coil that is twisted into a figure 8, i call it the "infinity coil". There by i theorized that i would achieve the wave form under Figure B. If you study these 4 pics enough you should be able to figure out the basis of my theory and its opperation. I was trying to take advantage of the fact that the voltage crosses 0 at TDC in a coil, so by simply fliping the other half of the coil i thought i could always have a unidirectional wave.


Ok now the next image shows the actual wave i got when i put my idea into practice. I couldnt figure out that opposite polarity peak. I just believed my idea was no good. It wasnt until Gyula posted the naudin link in the other thread that i realized what it was. I havnt had time to prove weather it actually is a collapsing field, however that would explain why that peak was there and actually support my theory of the unidirectional generator idea i had. I just simply didnt account for a collapsing field in my theory. The last image is the last thing i discovered. The same wave can be made by simply turning a regular coil on end, this is the same thing naudin is doing.


So if naudin is right about it being a collapsing field, then i could understand being able to use a diode to collect it without putting a load on the rotor. However, there is one big issue:
turning a coil on its side or using my infinity coil produces very little power compared to a standard facing coil. Will the collapsing field have enough power in it to offset the drag created by simply having your copper coils producing eddies from the magnets going by? I dont know.

[petersone]

Hi Gyula,Cody and all
Thank you very much for your interest, comments and findings.
I didn't think my few lines would have that result,but it is strange and not, as far as I know, been covered very much on the forums,I can't begin to understand how it can be the coil collapsing,also,as the coil is the same pole when the mag.approaches and leaves one of them must be "helping"the mag.
I think lenzs law applies thoughout the cycle,but try as may,can't see how!!
I can't find any drag on the whole cycle,it's as if half is neg.lenz,half is pos. lenz,so over all, natural lenz,but how can that be!!
I have to agree with cody,it dos'nt produce much compared with the normal arrangement,but if it is "free" it's got to be worth looking at.As it gives little juice,so little lenz, it's a job to tell what's happening,my setup is not sensitive enough to really tell.Perhaps others in cpd.(clever people dept.)can give some answers.
Thanks again,and have a good xmas.
peter

[gyula]

Hi Cody,

Thanks for describing your idea, very interesting.
As I mentioned I am not sure on the exact negative area of Naudin waveform is being less than the positive one. Do you happen to have any measurement that may show the negative are is surely less? This would be one crucial point. And I agree with you the induced voltage amplitude is small, this would be a second question in this setup.
A possible remedy for the second problem could be to use stronger permanent magnets, and perhaps use iron guides (yokes) to increase flux: I mean using horse shoe shaped yokes with strong magnets facing each other at the inner side of the legs and the coils would pass between the facing magnets in a much stronger and more or less homogen field, of course the magnets with the yokes could be moved as well.

Why do you think of eddy currents in the coppers coil windings? You meant Lenz effect? Naudin did not mention such, though this is not an insurance, lol.

What is strange is that nobody has reported any further tests with this setup, at least I am not aware of any news on this.

Thanks,
Gyula

[Michelinho]

Hi cody,

Have you tried a coil in the form of the romag?

I am building a motor generator presently which uses the romag style of coils (8 coils bifilar side by side on a 3" copper pipe 2" long) and will use 2 rotors, so magnets on each sides of the coils spinning in opposite directions.

The romag is a self runner or so it is said, might be worth trying the coil style.

Take care,

Michel