Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power

[Chef]

Hi Cody,

Thanks for describing your idea, very interesting.
As I mentioned I am not sure on the exact negative area of Naudin waveform is being less than the positive one. Do you happen to have any measurement that may show the negative are is surely less? This would be one crucial point. And I agree with you the induced voltage amplitude is small, this would be a second question in this setup.
A possible remedy for the second problem could be to use stronger permanent magnets, and perhaps use iron guides (yokes) to increase flux: I mean using horse shoe shaped yokes with strong magnets facing each other at the inner side of the legs and the coils would pass between the facing magnets in a much stronger and more or less homogen field, of course the magnets with the yokes could be moved as well.

Why do you think of eddy currents in the coppers coil windings? You meant Lenz effect? Naudin did not mention such, though this is not an insurance, lol.

What is strange is that nobody has reported any further tests with this setup, at least I am not aware of any news on this.

Thanks,
Gyula

Here is the scopeshot when a magnet passing this way, measurement made with open coil.
passingmagnet.jpg

passingmagnetshot.jpg

When you insert a switch in the coil, which will short the coil in the proper time of the magnet movement, you will get undamped oscillation in the coil of much higher frequency.

[petersone]

Hi Chef
Yes,that's what I get,can you explain it,'cause I can't.
peter

[cody]

thanks guys,

Gyula, Are you asking if the negative voltage exceeded the positive voltage? If that is the question, the awnser is yes. My negative was 2X the positave voltage. I have considered the same things to get a higher voltage as you have. And yes i did mean eddies not lenz, but maybe your right. We are only conserned with lenz when we close the circuit, right, i didnt think an open circuit was effected by lenz. Any time you move a strong magnetic field by a large mass of conductive material, such as a coil, you produce eddies that slow the magnet rotation down. Watch this example.
YouTube - Eddy Current Tubes
But now that you mention it, Lenz law does describe this behaviour perfectly. I only call it eddy currents because that is what ive seen others call it. But it could very well be just good old lenz producing the effect. Id like to hear what you know of this. Anyways my point was simply that even if the collapsing field produces no drag on the rotor, the copper coils in the field of strong magnets will produce a drag on the rotor regardless if the circuit is closed or not. So if the coil produces only a small amount of dragfree power, it may be minimal compared to the drag from the copper, meaning your still not producing excess energy. Sorry i dont have more results to post, like i said i thought my original idea was a failure at the time so i didnt persue studying the effect. But its real easy to do if you got a bedini sg around and some extra coils to play with.

[cody]

Hi Chef,
thanks for posting the scope shot, I would be interested to see your switched oscilating picture too if you got one.

[petersone]

Hi all
Cody,at the end of the vid.it shows an open coil,offering no resistance to the mag.is that not the same as an open coil? the same as a copper tube after being split down it's length,although I haven't tried it,the mag. will fall staight through with no resistance,I've not noticed any resistance to an open coil brought to a spinning mag.
Thanks peter

[Chef]

Hi Chef,
thanks for posting the scope shot, I would be interested to see your switched oscilating picture too if you got one.

Hello

Here it is. There is no input source except the moving magnet,and a reed switch inserted in the air coil which will short it.

oscillatingcoil.jpg

[gyula]

thanks guys,
...
Any time you move a strong magnetic field by a large mass of conductive material, such as a coil, you produce eddies that slow the magnet rotation down. Watch this example.
YouTube - Eddy Current Tubes
But now that you mention it, Lenz law does describe this behaviour perfectly. I only call it eddy currents because that is what ive seen others call it. But it could very well be just good old lenz producing the effect. Id like to hear what you know of this. Anyways my point was simply that even if the collapsing field produces no drag on the rotor, the copper coils in the field of strong magnets will produce a drag on the rotor regardless if the circuit is closed or not.
...

Hi Cody,

I agree if magnetic field is moved near a large mass of metal, eddy currents develop in the metal body. BUT there is a huge difference between a multiturn coil as the actual body and a mass of metal body: eddy currents do not readily develop when the conductive area or cross section is relatively small, thin or 'chopped' up, I mean for instance the fine turns of copper wires next to and/or above each other, they are isolated, cannot constitute a conductiong metal body like the tube can in your video link; under these circumstances eddy current are at a minimum, no need to consider them. So it must be the Lenz effect then. And of course when we load the induced voltage we will find Lenz effect only then.

Re on the negative amplitude of the pulse: well I rather meant the energy content of the negative part of the pulse wave form wrt the positive part of the pulse, thinking of getting rid of the negative part, how much useful induced energy we are to face losing?
Seeing Chef's scope shot on the pulse (thanks for showing it Chef!) it seems to me the negative part pulse area is definitely smaller than the positive pulse area and this is good to know that a smaller than half the energy content of the total induced pulse is lost "only". In Naudin's scope shot this ratio seems to be fifty-fifty... Maybe it is me only that judges this like that?

Thanks, Gyula

[gyula]

Hi all
Cody,at the end of the vid.it shows an open coil,offering no resistance to the mag.is that not the same as an open coil? the same as a copper tube after being split down it's length,although I haven't tried it,the mag. will fall staight through with no resistance,I've not noticed any resistance to an open coil brought to a spinning mag.
Thanks peter

Peter, sorry, which video do you mean? In the link Cody gave there is only the copper tube. Otherwise I agree, normally a multiturn, multilayer coil that is not loaded shows no or very very little eddy drag, likewise a copper tube being split lengthwise.

Gyula

[gyula]

...
When you insert a switch in the coil, which will short the coil in the proper time of the magnet movement, you will get undamped oscillation in the coil of much higher frequency.

Hi Chef,

Very good you uploaded these scope shots, thanks again. You surely know those undumped oscillations of much higher frequency wrt to voltage pulse frequency depends on the coil's self inductance (can be some hundred microHenry or a few mH) and on the coil's self capacitance (a few picoFarads) i.e. depends on the coil self resonant frequency. I wonder if it were beneficial to tune the coil more or less to match its resonant frequency to that of the induced pulse? Yes it would be RPM dependent and it ought to be retuned but would it give more juice?
If it is not propiatery, can you possibly share some of your further tests on such setups? Maybe like loaded coil output voltage and current, etc.

Thanks, Gyula

[cody]

Ok I see your point. However it been my experience that using very strong neos around coils, even when the coils are open, still produces a noticeable drag on the rotor. In the specific experiment i am talking about, i was using 18ga wire coil with 2 strong neo's rotating by both sides of the coil when i noticed the drag from the open coil. But you guys are right, its no were near the amount of drag seen in the solid tube or a closed coil. And i also agree that the smaller gauge wire in the coil should produce even less drag.

Chef, where exactly are you shorting and opening your coil, at what location of rotation?

[gotoluc]

Hi researchers,

I did a quick test with magnets running on the side of a coil and made a quick video to help you understand my test setup.

Please not that my 8 magnets on the rotor are very weak 1" X 1/8" N42 Neo's and have been abused in the past. Also to note is my magnets are in a North South order so this is why the scope shot looks like a sine wave form.

Luc

Link to Video: YouTube - Generator Coil test

Scope shots of coil with no load:


Scope shots of coil with 10 Ohm load:

[Chef]

Hi Chef,

Very good you uploaded these scope shots, thanks again. You surely know those undumped oscillations of much higher frequency wrt to voltage pulse frequency depends on the coil's self inductance (can be some hundred microHenry or a few mH) and on the coil's self capacitance (a few picoFarads) i.e. depends on the coil self resonant frequency. I wonder if it were beneficial to tune the coil more or less to match its resonant frequency to that of the induced pulse? Yes it would be RPM dependent and it ought to be retuned but would it give more juice?
If it is not propiatery, can you possibly share some of your further tests on such setups? Maybe like loaded coil output voltage and current, etc.

Thanks, Gyula

Hello

Yes, it depends on those,this coil is around 160mH (around 5000 turn) ~220ohm, I don't know right now the capacitance. I tested a lot of different coil in the past, it was very intriguing to see HF, VHF oscillations with such a small magnet movement. To match the resonant frequency of the pulses we just have rotate the magnetic field vector around at the right speed (and short the coil's), and we have to make sure, the magnetic field, is always come from the same direction. We can use 2 pair coil around a ring, each set is driven by sine wave , 90degree phase difference, which would make the necessary rotating magnetic field.

Yes, I'm planning to share some of my experiments,but it will take me some time to remake some of them to record it.

I attached a file, it's connected to that subject, I suggest to read it.
Ignition.pdf

[Chef]

Chef, where exactly are you shorting and opening your coil, at what location of rotation?

This shot was made when the switch closed, when the magnet was in the middle of the coil. The magnet movement was linear, parallel with the coil axis, like in the attached picture.

magnetmove.JPG

[gyula]

Hi Luc,

Many thanks for doing this quick test and the video, also for the loaded case. This will also surely be of help in creating a generator with a minimal drag to its prime energy source.

One short question on the previous topic: do you find my explanation ok on your finding the attract force much stronger than the repel force between the two transformers cores?

Thanks, Gyula

[petersone]

Hi Gyula
Sorry Gyula,I meant this vid.Eddy Currents and Lenz's Law,it comes up on the right side when you go onto Cody's vid.
peter