Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power

[rave154]

GOTO,

please use THIS attatchment rather than the previous one..

thanks,

[nilrehob]

@rave

If you have the toroids as in the first pic, you can pack them really tight around the motor (tighter than in mod pic below).

/Hob

[rave154]

NIL,

that works too

i was just trying to keep simple and keep construction costs & time......down.

[gotoluc]

Okay Dave and Hob,

thanks for the suggestions.

Believe it or not I was going to post today and ask everyone's opinion if a replication of the Orbo would be a better choice than the dual repelling coil motor Gyula was suggesting.

Is there any information on the core if it's steel or ferrite? also Inductance uH would be good to have. I think there's a Steorn Forum for replicators. Can you guy's look into this and post details you can find. I'm kind of busy with building my DC motor to the magnet rotor.

@Gyula, are you still around? what do you think? Orbo or dual repelling coil motor?

Luc

[rave154]

GOTO,

the toroid cores are ferrite, no details as im aware as to what exact permiability, windings that steorn and other rep's are using seem to be around 0.5mm - 0.55 (around that)

the only "fuzzy" area is matching the strength of magnets to the toroid coil... too strong of a magnet = lots of torque in attraction to the ferrite but the toroid will not be able to cancel/sheild all of the ferrite from such a string neo-field.

most people seem to be using around 20-25-30mm diameter cores.

the overall circuit is basically a bedini trigger.... can use a seperate trigger coil placed around one of the toroids to trigger a transistor....or a reed-switch...or hall-effect.

on his site ( link at bottom ) naudin, as well as actually replicating the steorn motor, has done a simple little test with a ferrite toroid coil.with a magnet hanging off it below it..giving the coil a quick pulse.sure enough the magnet drops off.

The exciting part is the dual or even tri or quad use of just one toroid being used to cancel the attraction of say 3 or even 4 seperate magnets of 3 or 4 rotors, all with a single pulse, which is where i was heading with my image diagram.

naudin steorn page..

The Steorn magnetic motor replication by JL Naudin

ferrite toroid simple test...

Understanding the Steorn's effect by JL Naudin

David. D

[gotoluc]

Thanks for the details David

I have an update on the dual coil arrangement that seemed to reduce much of the Lenz effect. I now have my DC motor turning the magnet rotor, so I re-tested. The results show no advantage in using this coil configuration.

That's all for now.

Luc

[Jules Tresor]

Luc on ORBO

Hi Luc,
I'm happy to see that you are doing great testing on coils configuration.

Are you going to reproduce the Orbo attraction motor ?
JL Naudin seems very interested like many people.

For me it reminds the Minato motor, but he was using opposing magnets, with a coil to "pass the gap" (regauging). He said his motors use only 20% of input power compared to standard design, with same mechanical output.
He had a contract in Japan to manufacture 10,000 fans on this concept, but as usual it went deep in the sea ...

I read also that Perendev went to this coil pulsing to regauge their motor, instead of the previous 100% permanent magnets design. It makes the motor easier to build, for only 20% power used to regauge. So it is still OU, and put free power out, but is much simpler to build, and there is no depletion of the magnet force over time.

That is why I think that Orbo is genuine and can put more power OUT than IN, because of all these inventors that have done it previously.
But Orbo uses attraction of magnets to ferrite cores, and then it's cheaper because it uses less magnets, and magnets don't loose their power over time because it's on attraction mode ...

I might be wrong, but if you want to experiment, I would be glad to contribute with a few hundred bucks. Just let me know ...

The force be with you Luc,
and happy new year
David G.

[gotoluc]

Hi Luc,
I'm happy to see that you are doing great testing on coils configuration.

Are you going to reproduce the Orbo attraction motor ?
JL Naudin seems very interested like many people.

For me it reminds the Minato motor, but he was using opposing magnets, with a coil to "pass the gap" (regauging). He said his motors use only 20% of input power compared to standard design, with same mechanical output.
He had a contract in Japan to manufacture 10,000 fans on this concept, but as usual it went deep in the sea ...

I read also that Perendev went to this coil pulsing to regauge their motor, instead of the previous 100% permanent magnets design. It makes the motor easier to build, for only 20% power used to regauge. So it is still OU, and put free power out, but is much simpler to build, and there is no depletion of the magnet force over time.

That is why I think that Orbo is genuine and can put more power OUT than IN, because of all these inventors that have done it previously.
But Orbo uses attraction of magnets to ferrite cores, and then it's cheaper because it uses less magnets, and magnets don't loose their power over time because it's on attraction mode ...

I might be wrong, but if you want to experiment, I would be glad to contribute with a few hundred bucks. Just let me know ...

The force be with you Luc,
and happy new year
David G.

Hi stephenafreter,

it's been a while since you posted in one of my topics. Happy new year to you my friend.

I will be playing with the Orbo design and will post if my results are any good.

I have a few other things on the go so it won't be the main focus.

I'm also doing okay financially since I've been getting some occasional work contracts. Actually starting one tomorrow which should last a little less then two weeks. It's good pay and I have next to no expenses, so I'm doing fine.

Thank you for your kind offer to help

Luc

[CosmicFarmer]

I would imagine if you applied a load to the shaft in this design you might want to somehow decouple the load when the pulse is sent, and recouple the load when the mags are back into attract mode, you don't want to steal your own thunder...

Other then that this REALLY looks like a Bedini.

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Warning

Hi Luc

Have tried to call you, I am sure you have received an e-mail from my direction, it was not from me, DO NOT PINCH THE LINK, just deleat it all.

I have posted this in more detail on rosemary's thread, I have the police coming in tomorrow from their special department

Mike

[gotoluc]

Hi Michael,

I have not received an email from you. Maybe it was filtered by Yahoo?

I'll turn on my Skype if you want ti call.

Luc

[gyula]

Okay Dave and Hob,

thanks for the suggestions.

Believe it or not I was going to post today and ask everyone's opinion if a replication of the Orbo would be a better choice than the dual repelling coil motor Gyula was suggesting.

Is there any information on the core if it's steel or ferrite? also Inductance uH would be good to have. I think there's a Steorn Forum for replicators. Can you guy's look into this and post details you can find. I'm kind of busy with building my DC motor to the magnet rotor.

@Gyula, are you still around? what do you think? Orbo or dual repelling coil motor?

Luc

Hi Luc,

First of all, Happy New Year to you and all members here.

It is very kind of you to ask that from me but I really do not know for sure...I try to discuss my views on them.

I have built none of the two as yet and the Steorn is being built by Ben and Ossie at ou.com and also by Clanzer. Steorn design seems much simpler mechanically and surely cheaper to build. So it surely turns out in one or max two weeks time if it could be made overunity or not.
The dual repelling coil motor needs more work, more cores, and to my knowledge nobody replicated it yet (except hopefully the inventor DMMPOWER himself). If you tend to choose my imagined setup shown here
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post77367
you would have to cut those transformer laminations in a slanted way and make the facing surfaces smooth, also you have to make brushes to feed the coils on the rotor, etc., probably the AC version would be simpler?

By the way DMMPOWER has appeared on youtube but showed nothing new (only teases the viewers...) see here:
YouTube - DMMPOWER's Channel

So all in all I still believe in both designs as possible overunity setups and maybe, just maybe the dmmpower AC setup attracts me better....
However it is probably the most expensive to build... because thinking in those two mains transformers (Radio Shack?) you alread cut apart earlier you would need, say, at least 4 of them cut slantedly, if we agree on using 2 on the rotor and 2 on the stator as I drew and let the brushes switch them on in the right moment to repel and kick the leaving but still just facing surfaces apart.

Maybe we could invite DMMPOWER if he is willing share some practical hints on his setups? He is in the States.

Thanks, Gyula

[gotoluc]

Hi Gyula,

thanks for the reply.

I kind of feel the same way ... both have interesting characteristics. However, it looks like the Orbo is offering most of its motive force from the magnets and DMMPOWER's design is all electromagnet force.

I've been reading the topic at OU and it seems that possibly the Inductance of the Toroid is lowering when the magnet approaches and increase as it moves away. Do I have that right? ... that's an interesting event if it's happening.

Speaking of coil Inductance. Could you give me an explanation of your understanding (as simple as you can) of what the difference would be between a toroid or coil that has a low Inductance, like 10uH compared to one that would have 1000uH if we send a short period pulse of let say 1vdc or chose the voltage you find is best.

I would be interested to know the differences of strength of the magnetic field of each and differences of flyback energy.

Also, do you know of any software simulator or calculators that one could use to see the results?

Thanks for your time and a Happy New Year to you as well.

Luc

[gyula]

Hi Gyula,

thanks for the reply.

I kind of feel the same way ... both have interesting characteristics. However, it looks like the Orbo is offering most of its motive force from the magnets and DMMPOWER's design is all electromagnet force.

I've been reading the topic at OU and it seems that possibly the Inductance of the Toroid is lowering when the magnet approaches and increase as it moves away. Do I have that right? ... that's an interesting event if it's happening.

Speaking of coil Inductance. Could you give me an explanation of your understanding (as simple as you can) of what the difference would be between a toroid or coil that has a low Inductance, like 10uH compared to one that would have 1000uH if we send a short period pulse of let say 1vdc or chose the voltage you find is best.

I would be interested to know the differences of strength of the magnetic field of each and differences of flyback energy.

Also, do you know of any software simulator or calculators that one could use to see the results?

Thanks for your time and a Happy New Year to you as well.

Luc

Hi Luc,

You have good questions and I try to answer as best as I can.

1st question, yes I agree when a permanent magnet approaches a toroidal iron core the coil’s self inductance (wound on the toroid core) starts decreasing. This is because the core’s permeability starts decreasing (the working point on the B-H curve of the core shifts from the zero point, from the middle, to one of the saturating areas, and permeability=dB/dH).
The outside magnet field has the effect of a coil wound on that core and applying a DC current into that coil; magnet's effect on the core changes with the distance, like the amount of current changes in the coil.

2 question, the difference in the behavior of a small and high value inductance for a pulse is inherent in their individual time constants, L/R, where R is the copper (wire) resistance AND all the rest of the impedances (resistances) in series with that coil in that circuit you use the coil, and L is the coil self inductance, 10 or 1000uH etc.
Using the same input pulse (say 1V amplitude and say 2 usec wide) to the different coils, you would find the current may have enough time to raise to (say) 1 Amper for the 10uH coil but only a few milliamper for the 1000uH coil during the 2 usec pulse on-time. From normal AC theory
Energizing Time Constants of an RL Circuit - Learning Activity

you will see that a coil L/R time constant determines (just from the physical features how much the L and the R are, and Henry / Ohm gives time in second) the needed pulse width that is the best to apply on it so that a desired current should flow via the coil (you can see from the link that in just 1 L/R time duration the current is only 63% of the max possible that could flow in the closed circuit) and your input pulse width can govern how long the current is allowed to flow in the coil.

3rd question, difference in strength of magnetic fields of each and flyback energy, I think this is connected with the stored magnetic energy in a coil and it is (L*I^2)/2, (the current is raised to the 2nd power). So the higher the self inductance the higher the stored energy, assuming the same current for both coils to be compared. The flyback energy differences directly come from this stored energy quantity differences and for a given coil the flyback energy is always less than its earlier stored energy, the missing part is mainly governed by the copper (wire) and core losses.

On your last question of software simulators, well the realy serious 3D ones cost a fortune (like Maxwell 3D from Ansoft, Pittsburg for instance or Infolytica from Montreal Infolytica Corporation ) and the freely used ones are always 2D only, like FEMM, for this latter see here:
Finite Element Method Magnetics: HomePage

I think if you inquire for such EM softwares at a nearby university or you try to make friends with persons who can already use such softwares easily, you may succeed better in motor computer simulation.

So the big question for the eOrbo case is whether the reduced inductance of the toroidal coils due to the closeness of the permanent magnets is able to produce an extra recoverable energy when the cores come out of the saturation… this is what has to be tested, no amount of theory can answer it (conventional theory denies that of course).

Hopefully what I discussed was of some help.


rgds, Gyula

[petersone]

Hi Gyula and all
Your answers are very full,thanks,if it's not off topic,can you or anyone tell me,if a perfectly set up pulse motor,with NO cemf be sure of ou?and if there was such a motor,would that also mean a genny must be possible with no bemf?
peter