Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power

[rave154]

Good work LUC !! ( as usual ),

could you try one simple test that would only require a slight re-positioning of the coil...

at the moment you have the two "splits" in the windings furthest away from the magnet when the magnet is at TDC... could you rotate the coil 90 degrees so that one of the splits is closest to the magnet at TDC..and observe any change/s in rpm or anything else.

your "split" config is making me wonder wether its actually ness' to wind wire around the entire toroid but instead just to cover the front portion that the magnet really only sees....ie....about 30% or os of the toroid - the front section that is closest to the magnet..also....how about two lil split windings that cover that 30% area?

Hope this helps

[cody]

Hi luc,
Sorry i havnt been following the thread lately but i seen the last vid and found it interesting. Im wondering what the generator or bemf scope shot (when you disconected the power from the running motor) looks like with the two coils in a standard fashion. In other words is there less bemf with one long coil or less bemf with your opposing coils for a givin rotor speed? Its an interesting idea and i see the theory behind it.

Also one thing that has been bugging me about orbo is the toroid. I mean its a cool and interesting idea and all but i know from leedskalnin experiments that you are not harvesting all of the collapsing field because of the closed loop flux path(ferrite toroid) In other words that core is still charged with a magnetic energy that is undetectable by any means other than breaking the core. Due to this, i think it might get more efficient if the polarity is flipped for every pulse (AC). Another option would be to still use DC, but use a core that dosnt completly close the loop. A good example would be the ferrite core from a flyback transformer from a tv or computer monitor. Those cores are almost like a toroid except they have a small plastic spacer where the cores connect. This core produces a very good energy transfer for the flyback and allows a more complete collapse for dc applications. Im in the process of testing the flyback core currently, but i just moved for school and dont have all my stuff so progress has been slow

Another thing to make it even more efficient would be to add a second winding, twice the length of your input winding. This winding would act like a transformer on the input pulse, doubling the voltage of the input and could be fed back to the front end or another cap or whatever. Bedini does this. That way you can harvest the input directly and collect the flyback as well, of course you need to get your diodes figured out there, a full wave bridge would collect input and flyback. I know there is lots more ideas to play with here, but just wanted to share my thoughts.

Cody

[gotoluc]

Hi rave154 and Cody,

thanks for your interest. I'm presently building a dual magnet rotor to further test so I ask you be patient for some hours. I will answer the questions as soon as I have the new rotor tested and make a new video.

Stay tuned.

Luc

[rave154]

LUC, a dual rotor sounds good....twice the torque for free ( or at least for the same amount of electrical IN anyways )......going to tap off any of that torque in terms of a pickup coil or two ;-) ?

[gotoluc]

Hi all,

here is a new video that better demonstrate the differences between a single coil toroid over a dual split coil toroid since I did not show the difference between the two in the last video.

I did build a new rotor to accommodate 2 magnets but before adding the second set of magnets I decided to do this video (single magnets) so we have a measuring difference using the same rotor since the rotor characteristics have now changed.

I didn't have enough time at the end of the video to do an Inductance test of the coil once in the preferable configuration, so here are the numbers:

880mH @ TDC (coil on position)
1,050mH @ (coil off position)
6.75 Ohm DC Resistance

Also single coil resistance is 3.35 Ohms

I will be away for the next 2 days, so the dual magnet test will have to wait till maybe Sunday.

I don't understand this effect, so if anyone has an idea of what's going on please share.

Link to video: YouTube - GOBO Magnet Motor test 4

Luc

[Michelinho]

Hi gotoluc,

Nice video that shows the dual coils toroid in action.

The dual coil on toroid setup will work much better with a magnet duet because within the spirit of Howard Johnson, the North and South magnetic currents on a single magnet pole look a bit like a fountain shooting up and on a duet, the vortexes look like a bridge formed by the 2 magnetic currents.

The bridge splits after hitting the toroid into upper and lower magnetic current streams separately affected by each coils action on the inner currents and the magnetic currents hitting the toroid coming from the magnets through the coils(disrupt the flow). Divide and conquer as my friend said when suggesting a dual coil setup last week. It is or should be easier to make the magnetic currents reconnect to form the bridge (duet) than to repulse an incoming flow(single).

What I want to check is if there is also an air gap on the toroid with the dual coils, would the marriage (saturation) be a little self regulating so the setup is more forgiving.

Waiting for your next video.

Take care,

Michel

[Michelinho]

Re gotoluc,

I forgot to comment on the slow speed using only 1 coil (1/2 the toroid). What I suspect is that part of the magnetic currents is deviated and enters the toroid where the coil that is not powered is and you have only half the opposing field to beat saturation. The lower coil is aligned with the magnet so disruption of the flow in the lower part and the upper part is farther away) and when the top coil part is energized, the magnet still faces the ferrite with little outside flow disruption so more drag. That is how I see it, might be very wrong.

Take care,

Michel

[gotoluc]

Hi all,

a last quick update!

I added the top row of South pole magnets to the rotor and basically the current is half of what it was. I also had to back out the core about 2mm as it was getting noisy.

The current is now around 8.6ma @ 1.58vdc with the coils connected in the preferred dual mode. RPM is 195 from 210 with single magnets and flyback at 1K load is 1.19vdc from 1.43vdc with single magnets.

Inductance @TDC is 793mH and 1,053mH at off position.

That's all for a few days.

Luc

[Inquorate]

Ted's permanent magnet motor test jig - huge torque

@ Gotoluc / all - thought you'd appreciate what Ted's built over at hereticalbuilders

Semi contained field rotor? - Page 2 - Heretical Builders

Check it out

[rave154]

INQ..

WOW......that is completely unexpected and un-intuitive ! ( remember what i said about id love to just take what the goverment { gubermente - latin for mind control btw } says and just do the complete OPPOSITE, just to see what happens )........well...theres a nice example of doing just that....but in a "physics" way

{"ARGOS, with the laminated books of dreams.....to catch the Tears of JOY.......ohhh so many beautiful things, i cannot possibly possess them alll" - Bill Bailey}

[gotoluc]

Good work LUC !! ( as usual ),

could you try one simple test that would only require a slight re-positioning of the coil...

at the moment you have the two "splits" in the windings furthest away from the magnet when the magnet is at TDC... could you rotate the coil 90 degrees so that one of the splits is closest to the magnet at TDC..and observe any change/s in rpm or anything else.

your "split" config is making me wonder wether its actually ness' to wind wire around the entire toroid but instead just to cover the front portion that the magnet really only sees....ie....about 30% or os of the toroid - the front section that is closest to the magnet..also....how about two lil split windings that cover that 30% area?

Hope this helps

Hi rave154,

when I wound the first coil half on the ferrite toroid cor I tested it and found that where the coil was located was where it worked best. I could not get it to turn if I had the magnet attract to the half of the core that had no wire on it.

Hope this answers your question.

Luc

[gotoluc]

Hi luc,
Sorry i havnt been following the thread lately but i seen the last vid and found it interesting. Im wondering what the generator or bemf scope shot (when you disconected the power from the running motor) looks like with the two coils in a standard fashion. In other words is there less bemf with one long coil or less bemf with your opposing coils for a givin rotor speed? Its an interesting idea and i see the theory behind it.

Also one thing that has been bugging me about orbo is the toroid. I mean its a cool and interesting idea and all but i know from leedskalnin experiments that you are not harvesting all of the collapsing field because of the closed loop flux path(ferrite toroid) In other words that core is still charged with a magnetic energy that is undetectable by any means other than breaking the core. Due to this, i think it might get more efficient if the polarity is flipped for every pulse (AC). Another option would be to still use DC, but use a core that dosnt completly close the loop. A good example would be the ferrite core from a flyback transformer from a tv or computer monitor. Those cores are almost like a toroid except they have a small plastic spacer where the cores connect. This core produces a very good energy transfer for the flyback and allows a more complete collapse for dc applications. Im in the process of testing the flyback core currently, but i just moved for school and dont have all my stuff so progress has been slow

Another thing to make it even more efficient would be to add a second winding, twice the length of your input winding. This winding would act like a transformer on the input pulse, doubling the voltage of the input and could be fed back to the front end or another cap or whatever. Bedini does this. That way you can harvest the input directly and collect the flyback as well, of course you need to get your diodes figured out there, a full wave bridge would collect input and flyback. I know there is lots more ideas to play with here, but just wanted to share my thoughts.

Cody

Hi Cody,

I'm wondering if your questions above have been answered in the last GOBO test 4 video?

Please let me know.

Luc

[gotoluc]

Re gotoluc,

I forgot to comment on the slow speed using only 1 coil (1/2 the toroid). What I suspect is that part of the magnetic currents is deviated and enters the toroid where the coil that is not powered is and you have only half the opposing field to beat saturation. The lower coil is aligned with the magnet so disruption of the flow in the lower part and the upper part is farther away) and when the top coil part is energized, the magnet still faces the ferrite with little outside flow disruption so more drag. That is how I see it, might be very wrong.

Take care,

Michel

Hi Michel,

thanks for your interest.

One correction!... the slow speed was using both coils and then I just reversed the connections of the upper coil and it starts to run normal (faster). I think this (slow speed and next to no flyback) is caused because the coils are wound in opposite directions. There maybe a flux cancellation connected one way but the other way it works.

Let me know what you think.

Luc

[gotoluc]

@ Gotoluc / all - thought you'd appreciate what Ted's built over at hereticalbuilders

Semi contained field rotor? - Page 2 - Heretical Builders

Check it out

Hi Inquorate,

thanks for sharing Ted's work. It is interesting but I maybe too tired to see the benefits of this at this time.

Please share how this effect would be of benefit.

Thanks

Luc

[Michelinho]

Hi gotoluc,

I like the Orbo model, it is a nice little setup with many unanswered questions. So far I've tested regular and bifilar windings in different wire size and material: Regular magnet wire in size 28, 24, 22 and size 17 in aluminum in regular and bifilar wind. I have used copper tape on part and whole of the toroid.

Regular winding work well and bifilar not (weak external field). Shield as I made them were useless but I have ordered 3 lb of bismuth for futur experiments with magnets and coils.

One correction!... the slow speed was using both coils and then I just reversed the connections of the upper coil and it starts to run normal (faster). I think this (slow speed and next to no flyback) is caused because the coils are wound in opposite directions. There maybe a flux cancellation connected one way but the other way it works.

Yes, you are right, in series it becomes a full coil and in parallel it creates opposing poles with virtual poles like the SSG.

I have the magnets for the next orbo replication and at least 8 externaly identical toroids(more coils = more torque and easier load on the driver). I'll go from reed switch to Hall effect sensor and microprocessor controled supply. I want to try a SCR instead of MOSFET in the circuit. I have many other plans when I get it to work as the original Orbo.

I must use the occasion to thank you for all the great experiments you present on the forum and in video, you taught me a lot and you saved me a lot of testing time. Keep up the good work.

Take care,

Michel