Eccentric Transformer Theory -

[Armagdn03]

@Armagdn03

Sorry if i express myself badly i usually do,
i'm not sure about their theory,
but it seems like you're doing about the same thing,
although your theory seems stable.

Good work!

/Hob

Not a problem. It is more than possible that people have stumbled onto this effect in the past. What I have never seen is an explanation, or a science as to why. It is interesting though, because many things must be considered carefully. For example if you use the output to fill a capacitor with your capacitive pick up, you are automatically throwing away one half of your energy by energy transfer via capacitors. Thus very quickly can your energy gain be thrown away if you are not careful in how you manage it.

[nilrehob]

Why not just go inductively?
Where is the gain with capacitive coupling?

[Armagdn03]

Going the inductive route is harder and more time consuming than the capacitive route, but it is planed for the near future. As you can see there is no gain in going either capacitive or inductive, they are essentially the same, but small capacitive globes pre made is easier than winding your own coils!

[Armagdn03]

I'd have to make up some adapters for any size I did, the maximum length would probably be in the 2ft range possibly a little longer if needed. I'm not sure what is available in the diameters here locally, give me a rough diameter to shoot for and I'll do some calling around.

Hello Dragon, thanks again for your wonderful offer to help. I was taking a look at that turn of the century electrotherapy museum coil I posted earlier. He is using 27 gauge at 10 turns per inch for one layer, I think I would like to use larger wire, less resistance, but only have one layer not two, I think if you could cut the ten threads per inch that would be plenty.

I would say as large a diameter as possible. The specs are not terribly important, because I will match all the drive circuitry to the coil after it is built, so this portion of the project can be a bit more loose.

Thanks again, and I will send you some $$$ for the effort and shipping. Just pm me your personal info and hopefully we can get this on the road!

[nilrehob]

@Armagdn03

Do you think this principle also works for inductive coupling between wires with an angle?
In ordinary transformers the angle between the wires is just about zero deg,
but what if we have an toroidal air-core,
and the primary is winded with an 45 deg angle from whats common,
and the secondary with zero deg as usual,
or 90 deg as in this thread at overunity:
Application for Overunity Prize
Would it work the same way do you think?

/Hob

[Armagdn03]

@Armagdn03

Do you think this principle also works for inductive coupling between wires with an angle?
In ordinary transformers the angle between the wires is just about zero deg,
but what if we have an toroidal air-core,
and the primary is winded with an 45 deg angle from whats common,
and the secondary with zero deg as usual,
or 90 deg as in this thread at overunity:
Application for Overunity Prize
Would it work the same way do you think?

/Hob

Ohh... Nirehob.....You were blessed with too much insight, hats off to you sir for connecting the dots and seeing the relations.

I was not planning on bringing this into the topic till later as the second half of the demonstration. There are two distinct paths one could take to fulfill the requirements of an eccentric transformer. One would be an electrical dielectric capacitive route, the other would be a magnetic flux driven route. I have showed the initial experiments on the capacitive half, and what you are speaking of is its magnetic brother!

Lets speak of both extremes in order to get a good grasp of what is taking place in such an arrangement. Consider two coil, primary and secondary, each wound concentrically as a standard transformer. As we have shown in the previous maths, changing the size ratios of the coils gains us no advantages, but changing whether or not they are wound about a different center gives us a new range of opportunities. This was done by physically seperating the two axis while keeping them parallel. One could also rotate one coils axis with respect to the other. If you have them at perpendicular angles, 90degrees, you will find that the coils are out of phase with each other, and you will have no induction from one coil to the next. If you have them at 0 degrees you will have 100%induction and 100%BEMF condition per lenz law.

Now lets take a look at 45". Here we see that the coils are now wound about their own seperate geometric centers, and because of this a familiar condition appears. The primary of the transformer will induce only HALF of its inductive properties to the secondary when the vector analysis is done. The secondary, at a 45 degree slant will now induce its own equal and opposite BEMF onto the primary. This too will be reduced by half, because of the relative angle between the two inductors. So lets say your primary creates a magnetic field strength 8 units. The secondary will feel 4, and return 4 which will be reduced again to 2 units pushing back on primary. This again due to the coupling of the inductors being wound about separate axis.

Again we are left with the situation where the energy created on the output side is less than what it took to create the power, and thus are at a loss. However if the input of our transformer is a charge conserving LC or tank circuit, then the remaining 6 units of the 8 initial (of which 2 were negated due to lenz law) are returned to the next cycle, and we can see the clear advantage.

We are left with a familiar situation. As the relative angle between inductors becomes closer and closer to 90, the process efficiency, or multiplication factor goes way up. However at the same time, the average field felt decreases. Where these two inverse relationships meet is the optimal angle which is the best compromise between power induced, and multiplication ratio. Its probably 45.

There are other ways to set this up geometrically to achieve the same effect, but this seems to be an effective method.

Also, circuit losses have to be kept very very small. The power you are dealing with needs to be orders of magnitude larger than the power it takes to run the circuitry. If you are working with a cop 4 mechanism, which has a capacitive output, you fill a larger cap with it, you are already at a 50 percent loss so you may not want a capacitive "load" in between your device and real load. If your switching losses are 50 percent of the energy you are dealing with, you are back down to 1 very easily. It is important to take these things into consideration in any build. What is the most effective energy management system possible in order to make use of what we have created!

[gotoluc]

Great topic and experiments Andrew

I didn't know of this tread till today when I looked at the main topic page.

Thanks for taking the time to share you experiments through video as that really helps me understand things much quicker

If we have a primary coil Resonating at 100KHz and we have a secondary coil tuned to Resonate at the same frequency but positioned at 90 degrees, would it not start resonating to about the same amplitude as the primary

I'm sure you must of tried this but I don't think I have.

It would feel strange to me that a Resonantly tuned coil would stop just because of an angle change since I kind of tough of coil Resonance more like the influence of well tuned string instruments played and causing another one close by to start resonating the same stings. I don't think that effect stops by changing the angle?

Always something to learn

Luc

[nilrehob]

By the looks of the latest coil-design by agentgates
i think he is aiming for another kind of effect entirely:



(this is not my coil, it is made by user agentgates at Application for Overunity Prize)

The secondary is only one turn!

If i understand correctly he doesn't collect/direct the flyback at all,
thus putting a lot of heat on the transistor.



/Hob

[Armagdn03]

Great topic and experiments Andrew

I didn't know of this tread till today when I looked at the main topic page.

Thanks for taking the time to share you experiments through video as that really helps me understand things much quicker

If we have a primary coil Resonating at 100KHz and we have a secondary coil tuned to Resonate at the same frequency but positioned at 90 degrees, would it not start resonating to about the same amplitude as the primary

I'm sure you must of tried this but I don't think I have.

It would feel strange to me that a Resonantly tuned coil would stop just because of an angle change since I kind of tough of coil Resonance more like the influence of well tuned string instruments played and causing another one close by to start resonating the same stings. I don't think that effect stops by changing the angle?

Always something to learn

Luc

Actually it is weird but that is the case. Actually when coils are in resonance you can still couple at 90 degrees. This is because the second coil acts more as a mass of metal and couples to the other coil via the electric field. But when speaking of inductive transfer it is very much the case, coils need to be in parallel configuration to really take advantage of coupling.

http://www.gyros.biz/lecture/wmv/3.wmv


here is an interesting demo.

[gotoluc]

Actually it is weird but that is the case. Actually when coils are in resonance you can still couple at 90 degrees. This is because the second coil acts more as a mass of metal and couples to the other coil via the electric field. But when speaking of inductive transfer it is very much the case, coils need to be in parallel configuration to really take advantage of coupling.

http://www.gyros.biz/lecture/wmv/3.wmv


here is an interesting demo.

Thanks for the reply and video Andrew

I did know about the non coupling of coils when one is at 90 degrees from the other. However, I didn't know that Science has no explanation for this

So will Resonantly tuned coils couple to the same no matter what the angle is? or is there a better coupling when they are both the same?

Thanks for your help.

Luc

[nilrehob]

Nice video, Escher is definitely a favorite of mine.
More on the mysterious transformer:
YouTube - Part 4 of 6: Eric Dollard & Chris Carson Tesla Longitudinal Wave Energy SBARC Ham Radio
All videos in the series are great, but look at around 5:50 in part 4 for the talk on transformers. Very interesting talk!
I thought i knew what was going on inside a transformer... now i definitely don't!

/Hob

[bboj]

Well I think that arround the secondary we have the same field that pushes the field through the core in the primary.

[Armagdn03]

@gotoluc,

When coils are in resonance as you know many times they have a high electrostatic component to them. This is what still couples at odd angles, capacitive coupling does not really have a directionality requirement. If you imagine the transmitter as a point source, and you place a pick up perpendicular, one end will be closer to the transmitter and one end will be further away. This means it is siting in a potential gradient and coupling can take place. Ill make a video of this later on for you...

@nilrehob

That is an interesting set of videos, however that transformer guy seems to be a bit confused on his physics. A circulating electrical current creates a magnetic dipole, we call it the B field. A circulating magnet "current" creates an electric dipole, we call this sometimes A field or E field. When we place a high permeability material in a magnetic dipole, the core acts like much space stuffed into small volume, so much of the action takes place within or gets "sucked in". If we place wire into the electrical dipole the same thing happens, the wire acts as much space stuffed into a small volume and the electrical field gets "sucked" in just like the magnetic field gets sucked into a high permeability core.

[Armagdn03]

Well I think that arround the secondary we have the same field that pushes the field through the core in the primary.

Yes you are in a sense correct, however the lenz reaction and summation of all fields leads to the conclusion that these are not ordinary equal and opposite action reaction equations.

[Armagdn03]

The second half of this is a little off the charts as they say, but it is an interesting mental exercise either way.

SCIENCE HOBBYIST: Right Angle Circuitry

I would say that this guy is a little confused also because, on figure 8 he says "WHY?!!! I don't know"!!! The reason is because there is very high resistance in the electrical circuit. Imagine the air surrounding the cores with its inherent electrical resistance. The added wire gives an easy path for current, which develops to a much greater degree due to the low ohmic resistance. Much like the ferro core allows easy path for magnetic flux.

Look up magnetomotive force for an interesting concept, emf = mmf