Rodin Coil Tests and Replications

[rave154]

pouder & Jbig, thanks for the ideas..... got muh mind buzzing now

yesterday...i made the following comparison.

using a FWBR off a shaded pole coil..going to a capacitor with a 100 Ohm resistor across it..

i inputed 12.5V DC at 50% duty cycle, showing 240mA being drawn from the battery, while the voltage across the resistor was 3.0VDC

using the same frequency & duty, i then ran my 1,2,4,8,7,5 VDC PIC program into the coil... drawing 100mA and showing 1.33VDC on the resistor...now...

since the 1,2,4,8,7,5 program is a combination of voltages applied....the average voltage is... (1+2+4+8+7+5) / 6 = 4.5 then *1.5 ( so that the 8 becomes 12V.... = 6.75VDC average

totting up the numbers..

straight 12VDC signal
--------------------
input = 12.5 * 0.240 = 3 watts
output = (3/100) *3 = 0.09 watts

ratio of input to output = 0.09 / 3 = 3%

1,2,4,8,7,5 signal
----------------
input = 6.75 * 100 = 0.675 watts
output = (1.33 / 100) * 1.33 = 0.018 watts

ratio of input to output = 0.018 / 0.675 = 2.6%

on this basis the 1,2,4,8,7,5 signal is not as efficient as a straight 12.5V signal...however... that was using both winidngs on the Rodin in Series..therefore...when winding A was energised...so was winding B ( by virtue of being connected )...and this is NOT the way Marko Rodin describes how the coil should work... he says that when one winidng is ON...the other should be off......then both off.....then repeat...my question...

How would i go about combining the 1,2,4,8,7,5'ness together with the "one winidng on......then the other winding on....then both windings off"......using the PIC32 to control it all?

im not asking for code samples or anything like that ( programming the PIC is easy ).....im asking more on a theoretical level......how to combine both paradigms and then feed it to the coil?

David. D

[Jbignes5]

hmmm...

Do you have one additional controller output from the pic? If you do make it a latching 3 way switch. ok the way to do it is this logic. On is the switch maker. With three possible switches. On first pulse makes the switch go on for the first coil. The second pulse would switch it to the first coil disengaged and the second connected. then the third pulse would be skipped in a sense. A blank. Set the latching switch to switch between the coils and a third dead spot to cause the pause.
This could possibly be programmed into the pic and have a physical set of switch latching transistors to switch the coils on and off. That is only if you have the extra signal going out of the pic.
Kinda like this:

Pic signal ---> Trans1, Trans2
......................High.....Low
Pic signal off--->....Rest

Then cycle the pic thru the high then low then off in sequential order. High then Low then off, high, Low then off.

Thats the general idea. It would have to be in the main part of the programming with the coil signals being the sub routines.

[rave154]

Jbig, thanks for the reply........if i have understood you right..youre saying..

send a train of pulses 1,2,4,8,7,5 to winidng A....then....switch off winding A and send a train of pulses of 1,2,8,7,5 to winidng B...then.switch off ...... and have both windings offf......and then repeat the whole thing...

the answer im looking for....isnt so much a programming answer....or even a circuit answer........its a "what value does winding A have to be while winding B is at what value?"......kind of answer........hope that makes sense

(still in the middle of watching the rodin vids btw ;-)

[Jbignes5]

Here is an easier method...

You could always set up the coils like this. Power the first coil fully. Then collect the bemf from the first coil thru the second coil via diode. This way you have the positive pulse energizing the first coil then collect the bemf off of the first coil into the second coil then let it relax. Not only would that be more powerful but much easier to control. I think you are taking the pulsing too far and including too much like exact nembers in volts on each coil. This I believe is in error. The numbers of the positions 1,2,4,8,7,5 are for the purpose of winding the coil to the exact angles. I doubt it has a lot to do with the voltages in the pulse trains.
So try this as an alternate program. Pulse first coil. let the bemf collect to the second coil via diode collection method then relax. The timing would be pulse. Pause(bemf). Pause. Pulse. Pause(bemf). pause.
Don't confuse the numbers in making the coil with the pulsing of the coils. The bemf is the key since I believe this is the natural energy that Rodin talks about as being the source black hole. Rodin's description of what happens when you pulse the coil is very very accurate. Don't get the numbers confused.

I also believe that the off coil needs to be harvested since it would be like a transformer in method. When you pulse the first coil the second should be harvested to clear the transformed voltages off of it before the bemf is rerouted to the second coil. I don't know if that could be done but you might get a better result in that attempt.

[rave154]

Thanks for those ideas Jbig........interesting

hows this for an addition....as you said......pulse....pause ( & collect BEMF & route through other winding )......then pulse into winding B ( which has just recieved the bemf from A ).... pause & send BEMF from B to A.....then.....both off........ & repeat

you may be more right than you realise... i just had a thought,,, if a single pulse ( say12 V )....gives us (due to the geometry of the coil itself ) the 1,2,4,8,7,5'sness .....then feeding that BEMF back into the other winding would essentially be the reverse ...5,7,8,4,2,1.....whihc is what the math says it should be....


hmmmm..... *thinking* & *Thinking*

[Bit's-n-Bytes]

Jbig, thanks for the reply........if i have understood you right..youre saying..

send a train of pulses 1,2,4,8,7,5 to winidng A....then....switch off winding A and send a train of pulses of 1,2,8,7,5 to winidng B...then.switch off ...... and have both windings offf......and then repeat the whole thing...

the answer im looking for....isnt so much a programming answer....or even a circuit answer........its a "what value does winding A have to be while winding B is at what value?"......kind of answer........hope that makes sense

(still in the middle of watching the rodin vids btw ;-)

Hi David, may want to consider this setup. Remember, the PNP is closed until biased.

Bit's

[Jbignes5]

not right...

Thanks for those ideas Jbig........interesting

hows this for an addition....as you said......pulse....pause ( & collect BEMF & route through other winding )......then pulse into winding B ( which has just recieved the bemf from A ).... pause & send BEMF from B to A.....then.....both off........ & repeat

Listen to Rodin again and you will see that there needs to be a two direction in between the windings. Like cocking a gun (pulse coil one), pause (firing the gun (bemf from coil 1 into coil 2)), pause.
What it does is create little vortexes in between the windings and thats the magic you are looking for. Remember pull the bow string back Pulse, let the string (pause-bemf) go into the second coil then collect everything (pause). You are trying to compress the natural energy in the apex of the coil then let it go in a sudden burst of radiance thru the whole coils windings. Thats why I suggest collecting all thru the not energized coil then the last collection(pause) will be from both coils.

If you look at a regular coil in the bemf creation you will see that all it is doing is creating a field (First coil) with a positive or real energy and taking the bemf or negative energy from the first coil and getting a bigger bang out of it like a cascading amplifier.

..............................|
........Coil 1..............^ I'm not sure totally about this but this is what i suspect is going on
......._____.............|
.......|......|...........|
.......|......|..........|
.......|......|..Coil 2|...Rest
...............|.......|
...............|......|
...............|.....|
...............|....|
...............|...|
...............|..|
...............|_|

Hope this helps

[Jbignes5]

Thanks for those ideas Jbig........interesting

hows this for an addition....as you said......pulse....pause ( & collect BEMF & route through other winding )......then pulse into winding B ( which has just recieved the bemf from A ).... pause & send BEMF from B to A.....then.....both off........ & repeat

you may be more right than you realise... i just had a thought,,, if a single pulse ( say12 V )....gives us (due to the geometry of the coil itself ) the 1,2,4,8,7,5'sness .....then feeding that BEMF back into the other winding would essentially be the reverse ...5,7,8,4,2,1.....whihc is what the math says it should be....


hmmmm..... *thinking* & *Thinking*

Now you are getting it.. Keep thinking and watching his description of the actual method and you will see that there needs to be a twqo way frictional kind of thing going on, that is what generates the vortexes to compress the inner apex.

[rave154]

its making more sense

thanks bits for the shcematic, i may be calling on your help in order to send ther BEMF from winding A into winding B in the near furture

[Jbignes5]

use the pic to...

its making more sense

thanks bits for the shcematic, i may be calling on your help in order to send ther BEMF from winding A into winding B in the near furture

Use the pic controller to send different configs to the coils then after and you can see what duty cycle will produce different results from there. I suspect the frequency will be low from what Rodin says but then again he talks about being mistaken about that. So I would say duty and frequency should be low when you start. The see what results you are getting out of output. It might very well be there are harmonics to the energy we want to collect so keep going in little steps and with small voltages at first. Bemf is a weird thing and it acts differently when applied to a cap or coil or resistances. So another avenue would be different loads as well.

[rave154]

Thanks for the inputs guys, given/giving me a lot of good thoughts

almost done watching the rodin series ( everytime i see/realise something new/that id missed )

good stuff

keep the thoughts coming

Ahimsa

[rave154]

before i begin building again....

a Quick electronics question for those knowledgable about such things ( which i am not )..

if i use a transistor....and vary the resistance to the base...i can vary the resistance of the collector/emitter..and therefore control how much effective voltage is applied across my load ( as per the circuit im using with PIC32 )...


however....if i replace the transistor with a mosfet....is this scheme still possible...or does a mosfet act as a on/off switch rather than a variable entity?

Thanks.

[Bit's-n-Bytes]

before i begin building again....

a Quick electronics question for those knowledgable about such things ( which i am not )..

if i use a transistor....and vary the resistance to the base...i can vary the resistance of the collector/emitter..and therefore control how much effective voltage is applied across my load ( as per the circuit im using with PIC32 )...


however....if i replace the transistor with a mosfet....is this scheme still possible...or does a mosfet act as a on/off switch rather than a variable entity?

Thanks.

Mosfet will just act as a switch and pull lots of energy. The tranny is a good fit and will react as you have explained.

Bit's

[pouderbern]

make sure you test your coil in both configs.. wired against itself and in series ( not turn it into an electric heater though) I put connectors on mine so I could change the config as needed. My coil would produce vortices in one config and not the other on ac (of course) but when going to pulsed dc it was the opposite config that worked. for the moment both of my coils are connected in series.. i agree that the rodin coil needs the interaction to work properly, but whether it is the reversed coils or simply the geometry that produces some of these vortices is my question

also ... i have no manual for my function generator.. im assuming there is a huge difference between what i bought and a "wave generator" .... live and learn (with 25 milliamps) apparently

[Jbignes5]

You could always...

Look on the internet for your make and model. It will give you the capabilities of that particular device.
If you pulse the first coil the opposite bemf is the other half of the direction change. So one pulse to initiate the bemf to the second coil is the change you are looking for. So I believe it is less complicated then most thought.
The geometry is exactly what is running this. If you look at a single slice of the windings you would see that the first small wire broadcasts the field and then gets guided by the pulse in a beam antenna fashion. On a balanced coil like the doughnut version ie. playschool doughnut you will see that the focus is actually double ended. But when you look at my original thoughts about this, many posts back you would see that the shape I proposed could in fact be a motive type device.
So experimenting with the doughnuts would be best for now until you guys figure out what kind of voltages will be present. It could be that it would be very high so please try small steps at first when trying my ideas.