My Capacitor Discharge Circuit

[Zooty]

I have four 100v 10,000uf caps. I can probably get them to a couple of volts above the charging battery before discharging them by using a similar switch on the main wheel but it will be pulsing maybe once every 0.8 seconds based on the rpm at my sweet spot. Do you think this will give similar results? I suppose it depends on the capacity of the battery being charged also. I am desperately trying to avoid making a pulley system but if i have to i will. I am just wondering about the total capacity of my caps, 40,000 uf does not seem much compared to 168,000. Also, when the cap is short across the charging battery via the switch, does the duration matter? I understand it shouldn't be on for too long otherwise the spikes will go straight to the battery via the caps without building up first but is pulse width of the switch time very small? In between 1 magnet? Thanks

[Zooty]

Ok, i think i figured out why my circuit kept puffing smoke. The triac requires a maximum of 50ma to its gate. The diac was rated at 2A so by the looks of things, 32v@10,000mf was too much current for both. I can't get any more diacs so i have had to replace it with a 20v 1.5w zener but the same triac is still there. I intend to put a resistor between the zener and the gate of the triac to limit the current to 50ma. Can someone with experience say if this will work before i try it? Thanks

[nvisser]

You have to limit the current through the zener. A 390ohm will do it.
With that large cap you will have to use the largest triac or scr you can get.
All that current discharge into the battery in a very short time and coarse a large surge. Try this circuit with a bigger scr.

[Aaron]

mechanical switch

Zooty,

Without a pulley setup, you could probably come up with some optically
triggered switch that activates a relay as the mechanical points.

I don't know if the relays have tungsten points or not but that would be
preferable.

I have welded quite a few relays in the plasma ignition tests.

Going through a solid state switch first kind of defeats the purpose of
having just a mechanical switch but seeing that the cap and relay points
would be isolated from the other side of the circuit, it would suit the purpose
of having a real mechanical switch for the cap discharge.

[Zooty]

I can't try the mechanical setup because i just don't have the parts to do it properly. @nvisser. In your circuit i noticed a smaller cap/resistor. Are they there to keep the scr open longer? My triac spec says it can handle 160A surge for 10ms

[Ted Ewert]

I had the exact same circuit running with a 90 volt sidac, worked fine. I couldn't seem to get a zener to work for some reason, probably cockpit error.
If your setup is working for you, don't change it.

Ted

[Zooty]

It keeps blowing the triac. Another question, if the reverse bias voltage of a zener is say 20v and the cap reaches 20v, will the zener switch off as soon as the cap falls below 20v or will it continue until the cap reaches the battery voltage?

[Aaron]

low tech

I can't try the mechanical setup because i just don't have the parts to do it properly.

Well, you can do it with a roll of tape, rubber bands and 3 pennies if you have
to and it will work fine. I've done it with a roll of tape (pulley) and small
strips of copper taped to the roll and 2 copper strips taped to a nail.

I've done it with a plastic cd rom case holder, etc...

You could do it with an empty soup can and rubber bands.

This is a 1:1 ratio:
YouTube - Bedini SG | Mechanical Switch
Disconnected front battery from circuit then dumped caps back
to front battery then reconnected front battery, repeat.

That cdrom case could be on a nail on the upright below the shaft
and a rubber band from shaft around part of the cd case for increasing
or decreasing ratio. I got pretty good at low tech ugly fabrication work
and it gives results as good as professional looking work.

If these things can't be done with bubble gum and scotch tape, then
it is probably over-engineered.

[Ted Ewert]

It keeps blowing the triac. Another question, if the reverse bias voltage of a zener is say 20v and the cap reaches 20v, will the zener switch off as soon as the cap falls below 20v or will it continue until the cap reaches the battery voltage?

Once a triac fires, it stays on until current stops flowing. Then it turns off and waits for the next signal. It will turn off when the cap reaches even voltage with the battery.
A cap can dump a lot of current in a short period of time, this may be what is frying your triac. Also, the voltage or the current to the gate may be too much. Check the specs on your device to make sure you're within it's range.

Ted

[nvisser]

I can't try the mechanical setup because i just don't have the parts to do it properly. @nvisser. In your circuit i noticed a smaller cap/resistor. Are they there to keep the scr open longer? My triac spec says it can handle 160A surge for 10ms

I have to say I am not a EE. This was the way I saw Les Banki , a brilliant EE who designs ignition systems for hydroxy systems do it. He used it that way in his cdi unit. I was under the impression that the 104 cap is for smoother switching and the 470 resistor to make sure the scr switch off when the cap voltage reach about battery voltage.
Once the scr switch on it will stay on till the voltages balance out on both sides.
If you use a 24v zener the scr will switch at 24v + 0.7v + battery voltage.
Around 36V. I found that it does not work well at lower zener voltages. I think the cap charge up to fast so the scr just do not switch off.

[Zooty]

I set up the circuit with a 15v zener/400 ohm resistor to the gate of the triac and it works but the triac stays on after the first pulse. I am thinking of going with the 555 circuit and relay like Aaron said. I simulated bedini's 555 setup on a circuit simulator and it seems the 555 is a 50/50 square wave at 13.65hz. Is this correct?

http://www.falstad.com/circuit/

import the following for the circuit.

$ 13 5.0E-6 6.724437240923179 54 10.0 34
165 352 144 464 144 2 12.0
w 480 112 480 176 0
d 480 208 480 336 1 0.805904783
r 480 336 352 336 0 330.0
r 352 176 352 112 0 330.0
w 352 112 416 112 0
r 352 176 352 240 0 51000.0
w 352 240 352 272 0
w 352 240 288 240 0
c 288 240 288 336 0 1.0E-6 7.70818616796287
w 288 336 352 336 0
v 192 336 192 112 0 0 40.0 12.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
w 192 112 352 112 0
w 192 336 288 336 0
w 480 112 416 112 0
o 2 64 0 42 1.25 0.025 0 -1

[Zooty]

I followed Aaron's advice and went with a mechanical switch using a relay. The relay fires when there is around 20v in the 10,000uf cap once every second. The battery being charged is a 12v 4.5ah. I have never seen such a good charge on a dead battery when using other circuits, including the standard bedini wheel. The batteries stay well above 14v while charging which is strange when you consider that they are being pulsed once every second with just 20v at 10,000uf. The other strange thing is when i disconnect the batteries they take at least 1 hour to drop anywhere near their standing voltage, almost like the charging effect is still going. The charge in these batteries is real from the what i can tell by connecting a moderate load but i have not done a proper load test yet. It would also seem that the capacitance has to be matched to battery capacity. This does not work with a much bigger battery. 10,000uf and a 12v 4.5ah battery seem to be perfect together. Thanks Aaron

[Aaron]

cap discharge with mechanical switch

Glad to hear the results!

Yes, not only will it take a while for the voltage to settle and there is real
load powering capability there, but with even larger capacitance discharges,
disconnecting it completely can sometimes show the battery voltage will
actually continue to climb up to an hour - not fluffy charge but real charge.

Bearden says it is the lead ions momentum that is still going after disconnect
that continues to charge the battery. I think it is that plus something else,
but in any case, it is real.

How are you triggering the relay?

I'm guessing those points may be tungsten.

I always used copper strips but of course had the whole pulley setup.

[Zooty]

It's kind of strange how the relay is firing and i am going to switch to a 555 setup but for now, the 10,000uf cap is connected to the relay coil through a 5w 15v zener and is also connected to the charge battery negative through the relay. Initially i was under the impression that the zener would conduct when the cap reached 15v and pulse the battery from the same cap through the relay on the negative side of the battery. It does work but what i realized was the once the zener conducts, it does not switch off because the cap is constantly filling. When the contacts touch, the voltage drops enough for the relay to disconnect but the legs never make it back to the starting position. It works ok, i measured about a constant 10ma going to the relay coil. The cap reaches around 22v before the relay makes contact. Probably not an ideal switch but its working. I just put an old 12v 6ah battery and the results on that battery are also amazing. After 30 minutes i was able to power a 20w load for over 5 minutes, the battery was initially at 3.8v. Looking at the voltage curve across the battery you can almost see the wave keeping the battery over potentialized. It really is amazing how this is working. My relay is rated at 5A for 30v.

[bmind]

relay circuit

Can you post the relay circuit. I have some relays laying around and was looking at testing this circuit. I am having a hard time finding dead car batteries on the cheap if you can believe that. Here in Winnipeg, Canada they are asking for $15.00 for a dead batery that is leaking...unbelievable. It is better to buy a new one....