Closed Loop Freon Generator

[Slovenia]

Dennis Lee and some others put closed loop freon generators on the market for a short time before they got in trouble for doing so. There was a big company in California I think that had over 3,000 generators like this sold before they were put out of business.

Does anyone know how these systems worked. I think this is a technology we should implement.

[ewizard]

I'm not real sure what to think of Dennis Lee but he doesn't seem to have the best reputation. Whether it's the PTB trying to stop him or if he's just a scammer I'm not sure but I'd try finding someone who has one to see if they actually did work. I signed up (free at the time) for one of his home motor generators in which they would profit from the excess power it sold back to the utilities. That never came about although I still here rumors it may. That was probably 15 or so years ago. I do remember vaguely seeing him talk about a freon heat system back then but I don't have any idea how it worked.

[Slovenia]

Thanks

I'm not real sure what to think of Dennis Lee but he doesn't seem to have the best reputation. Whether it's the PTB trying to stop him or if he's just a scammer I'm not sure but I'd try finding someone who has one to see if they actually did work. I signed up (free at the time) for one of his home motor generators in which they would profit from the excess power it sold back to the utilities. That never came about although I still here rumors it may. That was probably 15 or so years ago. I do remember vaguely seeing him talk about a freon heat system back then but I don't have any idea how it worked.

Thanks. There was a California company that sold 3,000 of them before they were put out of business. I don't remember their name now but they may have been associated with Dennis Lee too. I remember the name of the company was a little different.

I'm going to do some searches and see if I can run across it again. There should be a patent on it somewhere.

[Allcanadian]

@slovenia

Does anyone know how these systems worked. I think this is a technology we should implement.

This system is called a heat pump, here is a good resource to understand how it works---http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump. In simplistic terms you compress a gas then remove the heat from compressing it, we now have a cool compressed gas. If the compressed gas is now released it will expand to a larger volume and get colder which means it may now absorb heat from its surroundings and this is how an air conditioner works. What is not common knowledge is that this system does not "generate" heat nor cold, it only "moves" heat from one place to another. While an electric heater has an efficiency of near 100% a heat pump can be 400-600% efficient because it only moves heat and does not generate it directly due to molecular excitation. They normally use a term called COP (Coefficient Of Performance)instead of efficiency because science does not like to hear about things having an efficiency greater than 100% (COP 1) so they simply made up this fictional term (COP) to explain it. Notice that the energy moved (Heat) comes from one open space and is moved to another open space outside the context of the heat pump's internal system thus this is an "open system" and is not limited to a maximum of 100% efficiency because what is moved contains its own internal energy .
Dennis Lee was simply absorbing heat from outside air with the heat pumps evaporator coils and the heat from the hot condenser coils would then perform work to keep the system running and generate power. We can see that the heat pump is proven technology and we have high efficiency but this whole system must rely on the efficient transformation of heat at the condenser to mechanical work and then to electrical power. If these transformations from heat to electricity are efficient enough then it should be obvious that the system must run on its own. It is no different than a stirling engine running from the heat of the palm of your hand only in this case the heat is supplied by the environment. This whole system is based on the efficient conversion of heat to electricity to power the system, without this it cannot work.
There are new systems out that can actually cool your house and instead wasting half the energy by blowing all the Heat outside as normally happens they use this heat to produce hot water. Let me put this in perspective--In 1842, Florida physician John Gorrie used compressor technology to create ice, which he used to cool air for his patients in his hospital in Apalachicola, Florida. He hoped eventually to use his ice-making machine to regulate the temperature of buildings. This was essentially the first "air conditioner", in 1842. 140 years later ---- I say 140 years later !!, someone that is not a complete half-wit finally figures out that maybe we could use the waste heat as well to actually heat domestic water. Such is the state of modern science and technology, they can build a nuclear reactor or particle accelerator but find it impossible to improve upon a simple air conditioner, LOL.
Regards
AC

[Slovenia]

Patent Number US4255934

This may be the patent for the device I am referring to. If so, it's patent number US4255934. This particular patent was invented by Roger B. Stephenson of Pompano Beach, Florida in 1981.

http://i45.tinypic.com/30be9n5.jpg

If someone else knows of another patent or instance, please let us know.

[Slovenia]

Thanks AC

@slovenia


This system is called a heat pump, here is a good resource to understand how it works---http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump. In simplistic terms you compress a gas then remove the heat from compressing it, we now have a cool compressed gas. If the compressed gas is now released it will expand to a larger volume and get colder which means it may now absorb heat from its surroundings and this is how an air conditioner works. What is not common knowledge is that this system does not "generate" heat nor cold, it only "moves" heat from one place to another. While an electric heater has an efficiency of near 100% a heat pump can be 400-600% efficient because it only moves heat and does not generate it directly due to molecular excitation. They normally use a term called COP (Coefficient Of Performance)instead of efficiency because science does not like to hear about things having an efficiency greater than 100% (COP 1) so they simply made up this fictional term (COP) to explain it. Notice that the energy moved (Heat) comes from one open space and is moved to another open space outside the context of the heat pump's internal system thus this is an "open system" and is not limited to a maximum of 100% efficiency because what is moved contains its own internal energy .
Dennis Lee was simply absorbing heat from outside air with the heat pumps evaporator coils and the heat from the hot condenser coils would then perform work to keep the system running and generate power. We can see that the heat pump is proven technology and we have high efficiency but this whole system must rely on the efficient transformation of heat at the condenser to mechanical work and then to electrical power. If these transformations from heat to electricity are efficient enough then it should be obvious that the system must run on its own. It is no different than a stirling engine running from the heat of the palm of your hand only in this case the heat is supplied by the environment. This whole system is based on the efficient conversion of heat to electricity to power the system, without this it cannot work.
There are new systems out that can actually cool your house and instead wasting half the energy by blowing all the Heat outside as normally happens they use this heat to produce hot water. Let me put this in perspective--In 1842, Florida physician John Gorrie used compressor technology to create ice, which he used to cool air for his patients in his hospital in Apalachicola, Florida. He hoped eventually to use his ice-making machine to regulate the temperature of buildings. This was essentially the first "air conditioner", in 1842. 140 years later ---- I say 140 years later !!, someone that is not a complete half-wit finally figures out that maybe we could use the waste heat as well to actually heat domestic water. Such is the state of modern science and technology, they can build a nuclear reactor or particle accelerator but find it impossible to improve upon a simple air conditioner, LOL.
Regards
AC

Thanks AC. I appreciate it!!

[RonL]

freon generator

I'm not sure that I have ever heard of Dennis Lee, but I have been on several websites with an idea that i have tried to present, one which has received almost no response of any kind.

Instead of freon I propose using propane in a closed loop cycle and compressed air in an open cycle. The end results is a simple positive output that is equal to the volume of air moved through the system and how much heat has been extracted, from atmospheric temperature at the point taken in and how much cooler it is at discharge.

I have an appointment to make in a few minutes, so if anyone wants more info I'll give a little more detail later tonight or as soon as I can before the weekend.

Ron

P.S. I have been lurking around here for a while and have picked up some info on lead/acid batteries that has answered some questions that I have been looking for, a long time. Also the thread on friction heating has really got my attention.

[WCastle]

Stirling Cycle

This kind of reminds me of some Stirling cycle engine designs people have come up with over the years.

One such design was being manufactured in Ann Arbor Michigan and the unit resembled a dishwasher for under cupboard installation.

From what I can recall the units were sold in the UK and were sold as a whole energy solution for efficiency flats (studio apts. in the U.S.) creating heat, hot water and electricity from the heat of the burning of natural gas.

Other units I recall are installed in large factory's that utilize the waste heat from exhaust of the natural gas heaters, furnaces, ovens etc... they would generate up to 25KW of usable 60 Hz AC.

Your comment on air caught my attention as I have posted about wind powered air compressor that stores air in recycled propane pigs. (1000 gal L.P. tanks) to drive the high power need devices such as water wells, fans, refrigeration etc...

I don't remember where it is on this renewable energy forum but you can see more if you search for it.

please keep us informed of your progress.

[Matthew Jones]

This guy uses them in his hotel.
HOME - CHENA HOT SPRINGS RESORT

It is essentially a large heat pump. They use the permafrost to contract the R 34 gas and then they run hot springs water over coils to expand the gas. At the point of pressure differential they use the expanding to drive closed turbine,which is connected to a generator.

Anybody can build one if you have pipe fitting skills and AC tools. The easiest is to dig a trench 5-6 foot deep and run copper line under the ground. I don't know how much you would have reference for the amount of gas you need.
Then then you heat it with solar hot water panels, except they would have the gas in them. That will expand the gas.

At the point which the gas comes out of the panels you can run the gas through a valve, I forget the name, and expand it. It will have enough pressure to turn something. You would have to either make a micro turbine that could contain the gas or use a Turbo unit with a shaft or something. It would have to be seal up real good. Then hook an alternator over the shaft.

You could go to the library and read about the gas equations you would need to figure out how much gas and cooling exchange and all that you would need.

Or if you can find a real good AC man he probably could give a reference or the figures off the top of his head.
Don't use FREON, it toxic. USE R 34, or a product that is similiar.

Matt

[1NRG24Seven]

I do believe Lee's device worked.

Refrigerants boil at around 40deg.F below zero like water does at 212deg.F above zero. The liquid expands as it becomes a gas under pressure just like a steam engine would using water but at a much lower temperature, So any temperature above 40deg.F below zero and the refrigerent wants to be a gas under pressure. The trick is to have a very large surface area for your heat absorbers from atmospheric conditions to absorb enough heat into enough liquid to keep your turbine supplied with the amount of continuous pressure needed to drive your rated generator at as low of a temperature as possible, that way higher temps will obviously still drive your machine.

I was starting to collect old heat pump units for scrap as many of the components are still good, especially the condensors (looks like a radiator in a car with little fins) these condensors could be daisy chained together in mass of Im thinking 20 or more to be your heat obsorbers from the air. They could be stacked one on top of another in a colomb configuration or tower with an apropriate frame enginered for wind and bolted to a concrete slab for strength and stabilty. By simply soldering the inlet from one condensor to the outlet from another leaving the bottom unit and top unit with one open inlet or outlet you would have a freon circuit ready to hook upto a turbine inlet and outlet for a close loop. There is more componenets then this obviosly but for this illustration, would be a basic concept. I believe the Tesla Turbine would be my choice as it also acts to condence the gas back to a liquid. If one wanted to eliminate the compressor between the collection grid made from condensors and the turbine you could build a liquid holding tank and place the tower in it and heat the tank with outside fire with waste oils. 200 deg.F water on this example would produce pressures in the range of 350 psi according to a refridgeration friend of mine. Most condensors can handle these upper limit pressures which make it exciting possibility for a closed loop turbine generation.
Heat is always all around us and can be harnessed today to make electricity, just need a little enginuity to do it, the technology is already a reality.

Good Day!!!....24

[Slovenia]

Lee's Device

I do believe Lee's device worked.

Refrigerants boil at around 40deg.F below zero like water does at 212deg.F above zero. The liquid expands as it becomes a gas under pressure just like a steam engine would using water but at a much lower temperature, So any temperature above 40deg.F below zero and the refrigerent wants to be a gas under pressure. The trick is to have a very large surface area for your heat absorbers from atmospheric conditions to absorb enough heat into enough liquid to keep your turbine supplied with the amount of continuous pressure needed to drive your rated generator at as low of a temperature as possible, that way higher temps will obviously still drive your machine.

I was starting to collect old heat pump units for scrap as many of the components are still good, especially the condensors (looks like a radiator in a car with little fins) these condensors could be daisy chained together in mass of Im thinking 20 or more to be your heat obsorbers from the air. They could be stacked one on top of another in a colomb configuration or tower with an apropriate frame enginered for wind and bolted to a concrete slab for strength and stabilty. By simply soldering the inlet from one condensor to the outlet from another leaving the bottom unit and top unit with one open inlet or outlet you would have a freon circuit ready to hook upto a turbine inlet and outlet for a close loop. There is more componenets then this obviosly but for this illustration, would be a basic concept. I believe the Tesla Turbine would be my choice as it also acts to condence the gas back to a liquid. If one wanted to eliminate the compressor between the collection grid made from condensors and the turbine you could build a liquid holding tank and place the tower in it and heat the tank with outside fire with waste oils. 200 deg.F water on this example would produce pressures in the range of 350 psi according to a refridgeration friend of mine. Most condensors can handle these upper limit pressures which make it exciting possibility for a closed loop turbine generation.
Heat is always all around us and can be harnessed today to make electricity, just need a little enginuity to do it, the technology is already a reality.

Good Day!!!....24

I also believed that Lee's device worked. It was always my feeling that he was discredited only for the purpose of suppressing his technology.

If someone knows what he was doing with his technology, please share it on this thread. Thanks in advance.

[Slovenia]

Link

Link To Dennis Lee Info.

Directoryennis Lee - PESWiki

[Aaron]

Dennis Lee scam

Seems like just about everyone at one time or another had some connection
to my town. Dennis Lee got his start here when he was out of the military
living out of his car. He started as a salesman for a company that was making
the flat panel heat pumps. There have been different variations but the ones
I'm talking about were about 4 ft x 8 ft and really thin. They made steam
when it was below freezing.

There is a hotel outside the town here that still has one of the setups visible,
but I doubt it works anymore. There is also someone I know that has a
solar/wind company here and he has a trailer that was used as demos from
those days.

Another friend of mine has a nutrition company here, electrolytes actually,
he died several years back but there was someone that worked for his sister
for a while and he used to work for that same company that Lee did.

Lee always said that he invented that heat pump, etc... but in reality,
he started as a salesman and eventually developed it into a full
distribution program. The whole closed loop concept may have came later,
I can't recall, but the heat pumps worked, they were installed on homes
and businesses and the home owners were to pay for the system out of
the savings for heat and hot water.

Five or six years ago, when he was through this town promoting "his"
technology looking for investors for dealerships (scam), one of his partners
kept calling me to get together with me because they knew I had my hands
on a few things. I just ignored them because they are scammers. They are
in trouble with quite a few attorney generals around the states. DO YOUR
RESEARCH. They are barred from doing their dog and pony show in quite
a few places because it is a scam they are running to get investment
money.

I know a handful of people that invested and got every flipping penny
ripped off.

He shows the demos of the sunburst generator and other motors. He didn't
invent or design any of that stuff. He purchased and got a lot from the
auction from the Tesla Society in Colorado when it went bankrupt. One of
those generators he shows was actually built by Normal Wootan.

Anyway, RUN!

---------------

Attorney General Sues New Jersey Man Over Sales Presentation

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
August 24, 2001
back

Attorney General Sues New Jersey Man Over Sales Presentation

SPOKANE - Aug. 24, 2001 - The Washington state Attorney General's office went to court today to prevent a New Jersey man from seeking investors in phony devices that he claims provide free or low-cost power.


In papers filed in Spokane County Superior Court, state attorneys are seeking a court order that bars Dennis Lee and his company, United Community Services of America, from soliciting money, monetary investment or financial commitments from consumers at a sales presentation scheduled for Aug. 28 at a Spokane hotel.


Lee and his company "have not shown that the relevant technology exists or ever will exist" to fulfill the promise of free electricity generation, state attorneys say in the complaint.


According to the complaint, Lee's company has posted Internet advertisements for "a free show (to) witness a dozen things the 'experts' say are 'impossible.'"


"Dennis Less and his companies have a demonstrated history of trying to defraud consumers," said Attorney General Christine Gregoire. "During the current energy crisis, some consumers may be vulnerable to his incredible promises and may fall victim to his scam. We want to make sure that doesn't happen."


State attorneys say Lee will pitch a so-called "Sundance Generator," which he claims generates electricity and sends it back to local utilities. As a result, he claims consumers' electric meters move backwards.


State attorneys say Lee encourages people to sign an agreement to bid on and purchase one of a limited number of United Community Services of America dealerships, which Lee claims to be valued at between $30,000 and $100,000. To be eligible to bid, consumers must make a "good faith deposit" of 10 percent of what they are willing to pay.


In 1985, Lee marketed a "solar utility network" through a company called C.O.N.S.E.R.V.E. State attorneys claim he falsely promised that consumers could cut their electric bills by 70 percent to 80 percent by purchasing a device connecting them to a nationwide grid of other users.


In that case, the Attorney General's office obtained a court judgment that found that he was guilty of false advertising.


He returned to Washington again in 1999 and at presentations in Yakima and Tacoma he sold interests in "perpetual motion machines" that he claimed could generate electricity.


The state Department of Financial Institutions (DFI) filed a Cease and Desist order against Lee on the grounds that he was offering securities without being registered as a securities dealer or broker in Washington.
According to investigators at the Tacoma presentation, Lee tore the DFI order up in front of the crowd.


Attorneys will return to court on Monday to seek a Temporary Restraining Order against Lee at which time a hearing on a motion for a permanent injunction will be scheduled.


-------------------

Attorney General Says Salesman’s Claims Violate Court Order

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
February 14, 2006
back

Attorney General Says Salesman’s Claims Violate Court Order
SEATTLE – The Washington State Attorney General’s Office filed a court petition to prevent a New Jersey-based traveling salesman from promoting products – including a machine he claims can make a car engine run on pickle juice or cola.


The petition filed Feb. 10 in Spokane Superior Court accuses Dennis Lee of violating a 2002 court order when he made a presentation last week at the Seattle Public Library.


“Dennis Lee has repeatedly tried to defraud Washington consumers by promoting products that, in order to perform as he claims, would have to defy the laws of physics,” Attorney General Rob McKenna said. “He’s snubbed government regulators during his road shows and blatantly disregarded a court order that forbids him from selling items or business opportunities in Washington.”


During the Seattle presentation, Lee allegedly described products marketed by his company called Better World Alternatives. They include a detergent-free, magnetic laundry system; a type of paint that can substitute for home insulation; a drinkable insecticide; and a noiseless jackhammer.


The Attorney General’s Office served papers to Lee on Feb. 10 in Portland, Ore., where he was scheduled to make another sales presentation.
The Attorney General’s Office is asking for a $25,000 enhanced civil penalty and $2,000 for each violation of the state Consumer Protection Act.
The state is also asking that Lee be required to pay nearly $65,000 in penalties, costs and attorneys’ fees initially imposed in 2002. In that case, the Attorney General’s Office accused Lee, doing business as United Community Services of America, of violating laws while seeking investors for a “Sundance Generator” that he claimed could generate free or low-cost electricity.


Attorneys general in multiple states have gone to court to keep Lee from selling his products. Following is a summary of actions against him in Washington state:


October 1985: the Washington State Attorney General’s Office accused Lee, doing business as C.ON.S.E.R.V.E., of violating state and federal laws while promoting a “Solar Utility Network.” Lee agreed to a stipulated judgment that included a $25,000 suspended penalty plus $7,000 in costs and attorneys’ fees.


October 1999: The Department of Financial Institutions ordered Lee, Better World Technologies, United Community Services of America and other defendants to stop selling unregistered securities in Washington. The defendants were accused of seeking investors for a “perpetual motion machine” they claimed could generate free electricity.


November 2002: The Attorney General’s Office accused Lee, doing business as United Community Services of America, of violating laws while seeking investors for a “Sundance Generator” that he claimed could generate free or low-cost electricity. Lee was ordered to pay $6,000 in civil penalties and nearly $59,000 in costs and attorneys’ fees. He was also ordered to offer refunds to any investors. The order prohibits him from selling products, services or business opportunities to Washington residents until he has satisfied the judgment. The order also forbids him from making unsubstantiated scientific claims about the performance of products.


November 2004: After Lee failed to pay the 2002 fines, the state agreed to payment plan and a reduced fee of $25,000. He has made timely $500 monthly payments totaling $7,500.


February 2006: The state alleges that Lee violated the 2002 order when he gave a presentation Feb. 7 at the Seattle Public Library to an audience of about 40-50. Lee presented products and business opportunities purportedly associated with Better World Alternatives and Better World Technologies. The state is now asking that Lee be ordered to pay the entire amount imposed in 2002, instead of the reduced fine, as well as new penalties.

- 30-

Media Contacts: Kristin Alexander, Public Information Officer, (206) 464-6432, kalexander@atg.wa.gov
Jack Zurlini, Assistant Attorney General, (509) 458-3538


------------------------------


p.s.



At one of these circus act shows Dennis put on, my friend that used to

work at the same company as Lee, he showed up in person to one of these
shows. He stood up and asked Lee, "Remember me?"


Lee almost immediately needed a diaper as his scam was falling down
all around him.

[Slovenia]

Thanks Aaron

Aaron,

Thanks, I never knew anyone who had any direct connection to Lee before.

Best Regards,
Slovenia

[Aaron]

indirect

I'll say Indirect! lol

I have some things I can scan in later if I come across them - might answer
some of your questions.