Tesla experiment, arc IS NOT spark

[vrand]

Lol, that is doable. The tips not too hot in 5 minutes run. Maybe because low current. I think input should be bellow 1Amp.

Thanks for the info. My small 100kV DC coil does not make an arc like your design, just lots of sparks even at really close range.

This is the Ebay unit I have.

100kV DC high voltage power supply tesla coil



This unit even has sharp points like your tack pins design, but it still only produces sparks.

The only thing I can think that is different to your unit would be your unit does high frequency and maybe more current?

What frequency do you think you are running at?

[sucahyo]

The only thing I can think that is different to your unit would be your unit does high frequency and maybe more current?

What frequency do you think you are running at?

Looks cool .

The circuit is different . Maybe that device output is AC. My circuit produce some hint of AC when sparking, and produce full AC on open connection (one wire mode), full DC on arcing.

You can test using neon bulb. use the neon bulb as arcing electrode. If you see both of neon electrode lit then you have AC. Mine one side is less bighter than the other during sparking.

From the noise, the frequency should be between 100 when open, and 5000 when arcing.

[fzzzy]

From the info in the page I posted previously, my guess is that there is too much voltage across the spark gap, and the cathode does not have enough surface area. When the plasma from the arc builds on the cathode it quickly saturates the surface area and the current bunches up in the spark gap. It has to go somewhere and thus becomes a spark, discharging violently outward.

You could try using prongs with more surface area instead of the needle tip ones. Needle tip gaps are probably ok for less voltage. Also, tesla discovered that certain metals produced a far inferior quality of discharge. He found carbon prongs to produce much higher quality discharges than copper, for example. I highly recommend reading the tesla chapters in "secrets of cold war technology." it covers the different techniques tesla used to get the highest quality discharges in great detail. Tesla's later designs often used vacuum bulbs and bulbs filled with certain gases; maybe there is a common part that can be used as a suitable testbed for reproducible experiments?

Great thread, thanks for all the food for thought.

[fzzzy]

I forgot to mention that neon bulbs are indeed acting as a plasma when energized, as are florescent tubes. They both work as spark gaps. Finding a neon or florescent bulb with the right properties might be an easy way to ensure people have access to a useful spark gap for experimentation. All spark gaps are not created equal.

[fzzzy]

It has long been known now that the "first" spectrum is mostly that of the neutral atom, and the "second" spectrum mostly that of the singly-charged ion.

So maybe the key is to put enough voltage across the gap so that it begins arcing, but not so much that the electrodes begin to ionize? This would explain why tesla found selecting the electrode metal to be of such importance.

[vrand]

Looks cool .

The circuit is different . Maybe that device output is AC. My circuit produce some hint of AC when sparking, and produce full AC on open connection (one wire mode), full DC on arcing.

You can test using neon bulb. use the neon bulb as arcing electrode. If you see both of neon electrode lit then you have AC. Mine one side is less bighter than the other during sparking.

From the noise, the frequency should be between 100 when open, and 5000 when arcing.

Ahh ok, thanks.

My unit is running off 60 hz mains with just a single diode so 60 cps vs your unit at 100 - 5000 cps. The higher frequency makes for a better ionized air channel for the arc plasma path across the spark gap.

At under 1 amp is the nonthermal arc discharge.



There are many applications, such as in dentistry, plasma needles.



Maybe Tutuanka is using it for his water gas mix to make ammonia?

[fzzzy]

Coincidentally someone else posted about a gas discharge tube available on eBay on another thread. This is exactly what I was wondering about. Superb.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post99759

[vrand]

So maybe the key is to put enough voltage across the gap so that it begins arcing, but not so much that the electrodes begin to ionize? This would explain why tesla found selecting the electrode metal to be of such importance.

Yes, there is something special with low current arc's. In my HVDC device it did not have enough pulses per sec./cps/frequency to maintain the plasma ionization column so the arc could form between the copper electrodes, so only sparks were created.

The frequency needs to be higher than rectified 60hz AC to have an arc first, and then can compare different electrode materials.

Now I am looking to find off the shelf HF & HV AC/DC power supplies.

[fzzzy]

I don't think you want a high frequency ac power supply. I have noticed in many of tesla's designs the combination of high voltage dc dynamo, capacitor (tesla calls it a "condenser"), and spark gap. This combination is what actually produces the high frequencies in these circuits, but they are impulse currents and not alternating currents.

Watch the sbarc dollard video if you haven't already and pay attention when dollard describes impulse currents: YouTube - Part 1 of 6: Eric Dollard Tesla Longitudinal wave Energy SBARC Ham Radio with Chris Carson

Dollard has also emphasized that reducing the impulse duration as much as possible increases the efficiency. He also says something about an inverse relation to time. I will have to review my materials again to find the exact reference to where he said this.

My theory about impulse currents is that they push a high voltage transient across the conductor via the skin effect and stop pushing current into the circuit before it is able to penetrate to the core of the conductors and set the electrons wobbling, producing heat. Ironically, we call this wobble of electrons electricity, when it is really just a waste of energy. Mathematicians of tesla's day were unable to model transients and the skin effect, so ironically every ee major today is taught that transients are undesirable and taught how to minimize transients and the skin effect as much as possible. From my reading about tesla I have begun to conclude that he discovered circuits that operated with transients and the skin effect via impulse currents were far more efficient than those operating by wobbling electrons at the core of a wire with alternating currents.


So, a high voltage dc power supply charges a capacitor until the voltage is sufficient to arc the gap. The voltage should not get high enough to cause electrode ionization before the arc is quenched. The arc is quenched using various means (capacitor voltage naturally dropping below required plasma ionisation voltage, magnets, hot air), preferably as quickly as possible, and the capacitor charge time produces the rest period between impulses. Then in the case of the magnifying transmitter the impulses are put into the primary coil which causes the secondary to resonate. This magnifies the power put into the system somehow; I believe it has something to do with the impulses in the primary setting up waves in the secondary which the impulses are perfectly timed to "spank" at the right moment, causing some kind of magnification effect.

I believe we will be able to produce appropriate and even more finely tuneable impulse currents using solid state technology instead of spark gaps, but it is useful to experiment with the same techniques tesla used to gain insight into his discoveries.

Thanks to everyone on this board, I am learning a lot and will be performing my own experiments shortly!

[vrand]

I don't think you want a high frequency ac power supply. I have noticed in many of tesla's designs the combination of high voltage dc dynamo, capacitor (tesla calls it a "condenser"), and spark gap. This combination is what actually produces the high frequencies in these circuits, but they are impulse currents and not alternating currents.

Watch the sbarc dollard video if you haven't already and pay attention when dollard describes impulse currents: YouTube - Part 1 of 6: Eric Dollard Tesla Longitudinal wave Energy SBARC Ham Radio with Chris Carson

Dollard has also emphasized that reducing the impulse duration as much as possible increases the efficiency. He also says something about an inverse relation to time. I will have to review my materials again to find the exact reference to where he said this.

My theory about impulse currents is that they push a high voltage transient across the conductor via the skin effect and stop pushing current into the circuit before it is able to penetrate to the core of the conductors and set the electrons wobbling, producing heat. Ironically, we call this wobble of electrons electricity, when it is really just a waste of energy. Mathematicians of tesla's day were unable to model transients and the skin effect, so ironically every ee major today is taught that transients are undesirable and taught how to minimize transients and the skin effect as much as possible. From my reading about tesla I have begun to conclude that he discovered circuits that operated with transients and the skin effect via impulse currents were far more efficient than those operating by wobbling electrons at the core of a wire with alternating currents.


So, a high voltage dc power supply charges a capacitor until the voltage is sufficient to arc the gap. The voltage should not get high enough to cause electrode ionization before the arc is quenched. The arc is quenched using various means (capacitor voltage naturally dropping below required plasma ionisation voltage, magnets, hot air), preferably as quickly as possible, and the capacitor charge time produces the rest period between impulses. Then in the case of the magnifying transmitter the impulses are put into the primary coil which causes the secondary to resonate. This magnifies the power put into the system somehow; I believe it has something to do with the impulses in the primary setting up waves in the secondary which the impulses are perfectly timed to "spank" at the right moment, causing some kind of magnification effect.

I believe we will be able to produce appropriate and even more finely tuneable impulse currents using solid state technology instead of spark gaps, but it is useful to experiment with the same techniques tesla used to gain insight into his discoveries.

Thanks to everyone on this board, I am learning a lot and will be performing my own experiments shortly!

Thanks Fzzzy for the info!
Interesting theory that Eric Dollard talks about and Gerry "Impulse Current".

That ebay seller also sells the ps for that gas tube

Deluxe 12vdc Gas Tube Power Supply w/switch + Clips
[URL="http://cgi.ebay.com/Deluxe-12vdc-Gas-Tube-Power-Supply-w-switch-Clips-/230361276917?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&ha sh=item35a29a21f5"[/URL]

Please post your build setup and experiments, as this thread readers would be very interested.

Regards, Mike R.

[sucahyo]

my guess is that there is too much voltage across the spark gap, and the cathode does not have enough surface area.

That can be verified if others can reproduce my result with different circuit. Because I think the driver circuit play important role too.

My second test is a neon bulb electrode with water surface. I use neon bulb to indicate current direction.

When the plasma from the arc builds on the cathode it quickly saturates the surface area and the current bunches up in the spark gap. It has to go somewhere and thus becomes a spark, discharging violently outward.

My result is the opposite. When the distance get closer, the branching spark dissapear and change to arc. The arc current is higher shown by brighter neon lighting.

You could try using prongs with more surface area instead of the needle tip ones.

I have carbon rod taken from battery. The pores reduce the possibility of arc, even at closer distance.

So maybe the key is to put enough voltage across the gap so that it begins arcing, but not so much that the electrodes begin to ionize? This would explain why tesla found selecting the electrode metal to be of such importance.

Only if the driver circuit allow DC dominant output. I think abrupt switching is the key. Some people cheat this using a lot of diode in the HV part. But diode reduce power significantly.

I don't use diode at the HV part, so the power is unrestricted, allow even 500mA at 10V to produce more than 5mm spark/arc.

Arcing heat is unavoidable, some suggest tungsten or tungsten carbide. There thread that offer them here.

My unit is running off 60 hz mains with just a single diode so 60 cps vs your unit at 100 - 5000 cps. The higher frequency makes for a better ionized air channel for the arc plasma path across the spark gap.

I think the input signal part is the primary cause, not the frequency. Half sine wave is different from spiked squarewave out of radiant oscillator.

At under 1 amp is the nonthermal arc discharge.

Thanks for the link. Maybe my HV part is only at uA range.

From what I recal, tutanka do not use ozonizer, so maybe not.

This combination is what actually produces the high frequencies in these circuits, but they are impulse currents and not alternating currents.

Yes, mine is also produce impulse.

[vrand]

I think the input signal part is the primary cause, not the frequency. Half sine wave is different from spiked squarewave out of radiant oscillator.

Yes, mine is also produce impulse.

So your circuit produces square wave impulses, nice

Yes, I have not seen anything like it on the market that does what your circuit does by creating a non-thermal arc at such low current for experimenters. There are only specialized non-thermal plasma tools for dentists and even in treating soft fruit & vegetables.

I was thinking of using that arc to process air + NOx + water mist, into a fuel for an engine. The arc is more powerful than just creating ions with corona discharge or sparks.

When creating the arc do you smell ozone? Ammonia?
Can you spray water mist through it and see if there is any reaction?
Blow air across it to see if it effects the arc path?

Thanks, Mike

[sucahyo]

I was thinking of using that arc to process air + NOx + water mist, into a fuel for an engine. The arc is more powerful than just creating ions with corona discharge or sparks.

I think corona produce more ozone than arc because arc have less active surface.

I actually plan to use this circuit for engine ionizer too. But I found that using bare wire in paralel with insulated wire produce much more corona than carefully tuned spark gap. Insulated wire may melt, but it is sufficient for experiment. Better method would a glass tube with spaced copper coil in the inner part, and copper sheet at the outside. It will make more corona inside than outside.

And since my circuit is DC dominant, it is possible to produce more negative ion (for health concern).

[sucahyo]

I just notice that DC properties of my circuit enable me to test lifter project / ion wind .
YouTube - Playing with bare wire

[vrand]

I think corona produce more ozone than arc because arc have less active surface.

I actually plan to use this circuit for engine ionizer too. But I found that using bare wire in paralel with insulated wire produce much more corona than carefully tuned spark gap. Insulated wire may melt, but it is sufficient for experiment. Better method would a glass tube with spaced copper coil in the inner part, and copper sheet at the outside. It will make more corona inside than outside.

And since my circuit is DC dominant, it is possible to produce more negative ion (for health concern).

Ahh ok, we are thinking of the same arc application for engines.

Tutanka seemed to be able to do it with his 100 watt HV setup. I was thinking of a row of 10 or more pointed sharp end stingo's all creating the arcs, and then have air a water mist blow through that field of +10 arcs to create ammonia and nitrous oxide to fuel an engine.

The +HV copper rod in the center to copper tube shell would first create corona discharge, then with more voltage create sparks, then with more voltage create arcs, if the spacing was close.

Maybe if you rough sanded the copper rod and inside of the copper tube, to make tiny sharp points, where the arcs could easily form?