Tesla experiment, arc IS NOT spark

[vrand]

My theory about impulse currents is that they push a high voltage transient across the conductor via the skin effect and stop pushing current into the circuit before it is able to penetrate to the core of the conductors and set the electrons wobbling, producing heat.

Your theory makes complete sense to me

Eric Dollard says the same about Tesla's longitudinal electricity. He recommends Lutz wire, or even the fine wire used in coaxial shielding, the thinner the stranded wires the better, so there is less friction/resistance to the skin effect flow of electricity.

I was always fascinated with the Borderland video demonstrations that Eric did back in the 1980's. Its now 30 yrs later and we still have not been able to figure it out so we can power our homes with Tesla's "other" electricity. Tesla's first electricity invention we are using right now.

What wire are you thinking of using in your device?
To create the "impulse current" will go with the spark gap or plasma tubes?
Circuit diagram?

Thanks, Mike

[Jbignes5]

You could try this setup

I don't think you want a high frequency ac power supply. I have noticed in many of tesla's designs the combination of high voltage dc dynamo, capacitor (tesla calls it a "condenser"), and spark gap. This combination is what actually produces the high frequencies in these circuits, but they are impulse currents and not alternating currents.

Watch the sbarc dollard video if you haven't already and pay attention when dollard describes impulse currents: YouTube - Part 1 of 6: Eric Dollard Tesla Longitudinal wave Energy SBARC Ham Radio with Chris Carson

Dollard has also emphasized that reducing the impulse duration as much as possible increases the efficiency. He also says something about an inverse relation to time. I will have to review my materials again to find the exact reference to where he said this.

My theory about impulse currents is that they push a high voltage transient across the conductor via the skin effect and stop pushing current into the circuit before it is able to penetrate to the core of the conductors and set the electrons wobbling, producing heat. Ironically, we call this wobble of electrons electricity, when it is really just a waste of energy. Mathematicians of tesla's day were unable to model transients and the skin effect, so ironically every ee major today is taught that transients are undesirable and taught how to minimize transients and the skin effect as much as possible. From my reading about tesla I have begun to conclude that he discovered circuits that operated with transients and the skin effect via impulse currents were far more efficient than those operating by wobbling electrons at the core of a wire with alternating currents.


So, a high voltage dc power supply charges a capacitor until the voltage is sufficient to arc the gap. The voltage should not get high enough to cause electrode ionization before the arc is quenched. The arc is quenched using various means (capacitor voltage naturally dropping below required plasma ionisation voltage, magnets, hot air), preferably as quickly as possible, and the capacitor charge time produces the rest period between impulses. Then in the case of the magnifying transmitter the impulses are put into the primary coil which causes the secondary to resonate. This magnifies the power put into the system somehow; I believe it has something to do with the impulses in the primary setting up waves in the secondary which the impulses are perfectly timed to "spank" at the right moment, causing some kind of magnification effect.

I believe we will be able to produce appropriate and even more finely tuneable impulse currents using solid state technology instead of spark gaps, but it is useful to experiment with the same techniques tesla used to gain insight into his discoveries.

Thanks to everyone on this board, I am learning a lot and will be performing my own experiments shortly!

This might be what you are looking for. I have modified the second half of the circuit after the special oil filled no core transformer That Tesla designed. This should be the holy grail of all of Tesla's work and should be statically shielded by aluminum all around except where you want it to react with the charges outside of the system. The static shielding should be around all the wires and transformer and is not connected to anything. I suspect it is to keep out the charges that would be attracted to the hv potentials present in the circuit.

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p...slacircuit.jpg

This original circuit is from this link.

"Experiments with Alternate Currents of High Potential and High Frequency"

[boguslaw]

Always look at magnetic side of effect.Count also external bias.Energy is not created , it's taken from other form.

[fzzzy]

That can be verified if others can reproduce my result with different circuit. Because I think the driver circuit play important role too.

My second test is a neon bulb electrode with water surface. I use neon bulb to indicate current direction.

My result is the opposite. When the distance get closer, the branching spark dissapear and change to arc. The arc current is higher shown by brighter neon lighting.

I have carbon rod taken from battery. The pores reduce the possibility of arc, even at closer distance.

Only if the driver circuit allow DC dominant output. I think abrupt switching is the key. Some people cheat this using a lot of diode in the HV part. But diode reduce power significantly.

I don't use diode at the HV part, so the power is unrestricted, allow even 500mA at 10V to produce more than 5mm spark/arc.

I will definitely try to reproduce these experiments next week. Thank you for this thread!

If the spark mode occurs when the electrodes are far and arc mode when they are closer, then my theory is because of the pointed electrodes, there is less surface area the plasma is able to reach when the electrodes are far. When you bring them closer, the plasma grows over a larger surface area and is able to discharge into the conductor instead of into the space surrounding the gap.

Too bad the carbon from a battery does not work. I wonder if graphite from pencil lead would work? Also the voltage might have to be higher? That's just a guess.

My hunch is that a plain high voltage dc power source is best, since tesla used them in all his experiments. I have no experience yet though.

And yes, the abruptness of the impulse is absolutely key to doing anything interesting with the impulse currents. The lower the voltage, the shorter the pulse has to be is my guess. In tesla's day he had only rotary spark gaps, magnetically quenched spark gaps, etc. But nowadays we can generate waves of very high precision and speed using solid state components. Once we know enough about what tesla was actually encountering by replicating his devices we can understand how to implement his devices solid state (like Meyl appears to have done)

This thread is a goldmine of inspiration and understanding.

[fzzzy]

Your theory makes complete sense to me

Eric Dollard says the same about Tesla's longitudinal electricity. He recommends Lutz wire, or even the fine wire used in coaxial shielding, the thinner the stranded wires the better, so there is less friction/resistance to the skin effect flow of electricity.

I was always fascinated with the Borderland video demonstrations that Eric did back in the 1980's. Its now 30 yrs later and we still have not been able to figure it out so we can power our homes with Tesla's "other" electricity. Tesla's first electricity invention we are using right now.

What wire are you thinking of using in your device?
To create the "impulse current" will go with the spark gap or plasma tubes?
Circuit diagram?

Thanks, Mike

Yes, my theory comes entirely from information given by Eric dollard. His 80s videos are classics, I wish he would do a modern video of gas discharge tubes generating spiral galaxy formations, tree formations, and other lifelike structures he has mentioned producing.

First I have to perform some fundamental experiments, including reproducing the experiments in this thread. I am a software engineer, not an electrical engineer. Once I have some experience I plan on attempting a reproduction of the device dollard shows. Sheet copper primary, coax pancake coil secondary, gas discharge tube spark gap, neon bulb termination.

[fzzzy]

This might be what you are looking for. I have modified the second half of the circuit after the special oil filled no core transformer That Tesla designed. This should be the holy grail of all of Tesla's work and should be statically shielded by aluminum all around except where you want it to react with the charges outside of the system. The static shielding should be around all the wires and transformer and is not connected to anything. I suspect it is to keep out the charges that would be attracted to the hv potentials present in the circuit.

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p...slacircuit.jpg

This original circuit is from this link.

"Experiments with Alternate Currents of High Potential and High Frequency"

I like that setup very much. Thank you very much for posting it.

I was just reading about tesla's oil filled coils in the book "son of tesla coil". Very interesting.

If you put a capacitor after the low voltage high current impulse dc section, could you get higher voltage normal dc?

[Jbignes5]

Well..

I like that setup very much. Thank you very much for posting it.

I was just reading about tesla's oil filled coils in the book "son of tesla coil". Very interesting.

If you put a capacitor after the low voltage high current impulse dc section, could you get higher voltage normal dc?

Yeah, the low voltage high current section should use anything to smooth it out. Thats the output by the way and from what I understand what comes out of it is very free current. Meaning one could loop it through the input and create a self powering device through the use of diodes. The source would only be needed to kick start the flow between the two antenna's.

[fzzzy]

Yeah, the low voltage high current section should use anything to smooth it out. Thats the output by the way and from what I understand what comes out of it is very free current. Meaning one could loop it through the input and create a self powering device through the use of diodes. The source would only be needed to kick start the flow between the two antenna's.

Yep, that's my understanding. I have seen schematics for systems that use two batteries, one to kickstart the process and the other to charge, and switches them every once in a while. That's the next step after actually getting it working though

[Jbignes5]

Yep, that's my understanding. I have seen schematics for systems that use two batteries, one to kickstart the process and the other to charge, and switches them every once in a while. That's the next step after actually getting it working though

This system could be kick started with the same apparatus that is in an electronic lighter. You know the click lighters. Good ones have any where from 10k-13k volts but little current from the piezo effect.
I am gonna try to use a dc motor that is pulsed going to the alternator that way it should self regulate itself as a first test of this system.
My understanding of this circuit is that Tesla figured out that all current comes from outside of the wires and flows in or around the wires twords the high potential source. That source would be just before the load transformer in this case. When the charges flow twords the source the load coil splits the current through a totally separated induction (oil dielectric) from a mini version of his special transformer that is not bucking but still is made like the second transformer from the bottom left.
If one looks at the second link you will start to see that these sheets of light he is talking about are actually charges flowing through his secondary of that special bucking transformer (static transformer).
If you keep reading he goes into static shielding to block the charges from entering the system till he wants to interact with it in effect lowering the resistance to nothing because there would be no current leaking in the wires.
The one wire lighting (brush) effect he talks about is really interesting and should be looked at more closely. In fact just after that experiment he goes on to say how he used the hv source to pull charges through tubes that he could only make work with tons of real current. He then shows some interesting experiments about making a motor with one wire only and how he thought it was working.
It's a very good read and from what I can tell he demonstrated this all to a room filled with scientists and electrical engineers in 1892. I think this earlier attempt was closer to the eventual Pierce Arrow experiment much later after warden cliff. He didn't want millions of horsepower anymore after warden cliff and thought he could revive the technology on a more person level apparatus.

[boguslaw]

Abrupt discharge ...or abrupt collapse ?

YouTube - Balloon popping!!

[Jbignes5]

This might help you to understand...

Here is an excellent experiment to show you the premise that Tesla was going in. He thought that there was a motivator in a medium.

Sand Patterns From Sound Waves

In this experiment it shows you the self organization of the sand on the medium of choice for this experiment. It is the same thing in the case of Tesla's experiments. He found that pure Voltages are just charges. Those charges could be contained then exposed through real conductors that are rich in those conductors of the voltages. This exposure lines up the conductors of those charges through the same mechanism of the sand experiment and increases the reach of the voltages to attract other real charges to flow twords the voltages source. This flow is what we see as current. If one learned how to keep the source completely separate from the flow it would flow for ever and all one needed to do then would be to devise a way to tap that flow and divert it to the device you wanted to get real motion out of.
Think of it as fluid flow and how he devised the first real free energy source, Niagra Falls. All the falls represented to him was a source of potential. Then he figured out how to harness that flow of potential and diverted a portion of that potential into his device (generator) and divert some of that free potential into real energy flow to be used by other devices.
So this got me thinking about how he could setup a flow of the conductors in a system and then tap the charges in such a way that it would continue scooping up charges from the surrounding environments and use that collection of charges in the cycle to induce flow in the output without effecting the original flow and still get the output he desired. Even if it does divert some of the charges into the target device the flow would still continue via the cycle he devised to maintain the flow.

[tutanka]

I just notice that DC properties of my circuit enable me to test lifter project / ion wind .
YouTube - Playing with bare wire

HI Sucahyo,
Image of tesla electricity from air posted from you is very interested.. it's an best input .. I suppose that Tesla use that idea as next stage for produce more electrons.. if you consider that the EEC of meyer and lawton in fact are also electrical generator.. more gas processed more electrons

[boguslaw]

Here is an excellent experiment to show you the premise that Tesla was going in. He thought that there was a motivator in a medium.

Sand Patterns From Sound Waves

In this experiment it shows you the self organization of the sand on the medium of choice for this experiment. It is the same thing in the case of Tesla's experiments. He found that pure Voltages are just charges. Those charges could be contained then exposed through real conductors that are rich in those conductors of the voltages. This exposure lines up the conductors of those charges through the same mechanism of the sand experiment and increases the reach of the voltages to attract other real charges to flow twords the voltages source. This flow is what we see as current. If one learned how to keep the source completely separate from the flow it would flow for ever and all one needed to do then would be to devise a way to tap that flow and divert it to the device you wanted to get real motion out of.
Think of it as fluid flow and how he devised the first real free energy source, Niagra Falls. All the falls represented to him was a source of potential. Then he figured out how to harness that flow of potential and diverted a portion of that potential into his device (generator) and divert some of that free potential into real energy flow to be used by other devices.
So this got me thinking about how he could setup a flow of the conductors in a system and then tap the charges in such a way that it would continue scooping up charges from the surrounding environments and use that collection of charges in the cycle to induce flow in the output without effecting the original flow and still get the output he desired. Even if it does divert some of the charges into the target device the flow would still continue via the cycle he devised to maintain the flow.

Tesla explained that in his article from 1900. He described continuous implosion though I think the same is possible for explosion too (like balloon popping)

[Jbignes5]

Well...

Tesla explained that in his article from 1900. He described continuous implosion though I think the same is possible for explosion too (like balloon popping)

Well what radiates out is the conductors of the potential. Then an inrush of charges follow those conductors of potential. In effect guiding them to the hv source or on the path (copper conductors) to that source.
It was Tesla who figured out that nothing but potential causes the alignment of the carriers of the potential. They act like the sand in the experiment that I showed you. It's a different medium but it is the same premise of self organization. Instead of sound and vibration causing the alignments of the sand the potential of the source charge lines the conductors up, based on the degree of charges value or voltage in the case of any wire. Sometimes when the charge is not high enough to align them from the wires in the case of low voltage applications it draws them from the battery depleting the charges from the battery. In some cases adding a small antenna to the negative side of a battery helps it get more charges since the battery is but a static device.
Instead of using a battery he found out that huge amounts of current could be pulled into his special transformers secondary to supply a good load from without depleting the source. Although most of the time it changes or transforms the charges into radiative effects like max heat in the load. I think my addition of another oil filled transformer that is not bucking could be the ticket to taking what one needed and let the flow scoop more of the charges from the space in between the two antennas. Much like a battery does with the acid except this method I am talking about should be moving like on a vehicle or fan moving air through the space.

[sucahyo]

I was thinking of a row of 10 or more pointed sharp end stingo's all creating the arcs, and then have air a water mist blow through that field of +10 arcs to create ammonia and nitrous oxide to fuel an engine.

I found corona version to be better than spark gap:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post100180

This might be what you are looking for. I have modified the second half of the circuit after the special oil filled no core transformer That Tesla designed.

Interesting circuit, do the output AC or DC?

My hunch is that a plain high voltage dc power source is best, since tesla used them in all his experiments. I have no experience yet though.

Obtaining it would be difficult. To be absolute battery is needed, however 1000 12V battery is rather expensive.

In tesla's day he had only rotary spark gaps, magnetically quenched spark gaps, etc. But nowadays we can generate waves of very high precision and speed using solid state components.

Not sure about the only part, because many people mention that transistor is much worse than tube. Too much noise and fragile. Even Bedini have to made his own transistor.


BTW, I cracked one ceramic capacitor yesterday when trying to make spark gapped output...

Image of tesla electricity from air posted from you is very interested.. it's an best input .. I suppose that Tesla use that idea as next stage for produce more electrons.. if you consider that the EEC of meyer and lawton in fact are also electrical generator.. more gas processed more electrons

Yes, it produce a lot of ozone. Which is why I use bare wire and insulated wire for corona.

Tesla MHD capture electricity produced by spark gap. Who knows maybe a corona can give better output . I don't have diode (output is HV AC) fast enough to capture it though, it said to reach MHz.