ELECTROKINETIC GENERATOR, Thomas Townsend Brown

[thedude]

great topic

Hey guys. Great topic!
Heres a video that offers some info about T.T. Brown's Electrokinetic Generator and more.

I'm happy to see some discussion about this device. I have a growing interest in all things HV lately. Wish i had more I could offer to this thread. Hopefully soon.

Looking forward to what comes out of this thread.

[amigo]

Electrostatic Speaker Membrane Dupont Mylar C 6um 40M - eBay (item 120534551931 end time Mar-24-10 01:56:39 PDT)

I found this stuff that has a breakdown voltage of 225kv! This is the type of dielectric we should be trying for electrogravatics

I believe that's 225V not kV. If you look at the table on that page, the thicker ones have higher voltage ratings so it's safe to assume it's a typo.

[stevend]

Hi Steve et al,
It's been a long time since I've worked on gravitators and other TT Brown stuff. My gravitators never showed any movement but my air dielectric tests worked. I'm glad to see you're making gravitators and hope you get farther with them then I did. I look forward to hearing your results. I also used resin for my dielectric. My plates were aluminium. A few years after finishing with the gravitators I broke one of them apart to reuse the aluminium plates for something else. When the resin hardens, depending on how thick the layer of it is, it generates a lot of heat and hardens unevenly, pulling in from the sides and becoming concave on the surface. I found that the plates were seriously warped as a result. So I suggest doing the resin in thin layers. I've included a photo of one of my gravitators below. More can be found at:
Gravitator Experiments
and the rest of the non-conventional propulsion work I did back then is at:
Non-conventional Propulsion Experiments

Regarding the breakdown voltage of mylar, these gravitators consist of a positive plate followed by many layers of dielectric and isolated plates followed by the negative plate. So there will be many layers of mylar dielectric, not just one. If a single mylar sheet has a breakdown of 200V, for example, and there are 60 layers, then the gravitator breakdown voltage is 12,000V. Still too low, but you get the idea. Just add more sheets per layer.
-Steve(n D.)
rimstar.org wsminfo.org

[dambit]

Hi Steve et al,
It's been a long time since I've worked on gravitators and other TT Brown stuff. My gravitators never showed any movement but my air dielectric tests worked. I'm glad to see you're making gravitators and hope you get farther with them then I did. I look forward to hearing your results. I also used resin for my dielectric. My plates were aluminium. A few years after finishing with the gravitators I broke one of them apart to reuse the aluminium plates for something else. When the resin hardens, depending on how thick the layer of it is, it generates a lot of heat and hardens unevenly, pulling in from the sides and becoming concave on the surface. I found that the plates were seriously warped as a result. So I suggest doing the resin in thin layers.
-Steve(n D.)

Hi Steve,

I was reading on your site that you used a cockroft walton type power suply. I have been told that these are only capable of outputting current in micro amps and that cellular type gravitators require at minimum milliamps. I am assuming the reason for this is to overcome capacitor leakage.

Thanks for the advice about the resin. I am using a polyurethane moulding resing and doping it with AL2O3. By doing this I am hoping to increase the resins dielectric constant from 3.5 to some where closer to 7 or 8. The resin is pretty good in that there is very minimal heat generated during curing. Even so, I will be casting the mould in two pieces just to be sure there is no deformations.

I am still waiting on the resin to arrive so until that happens there is not much I can do but zap bugs with my power supply.

Cheers,

Steve

[stevend]

I was reading on your site that you used a cockroft walton type power suply. I have been told that these are only capable of outputting current in micro amps and that cellular type gravitators require at minimum milliamps. I am assuming the reason for this is to overcome capacitor leakage.

I doubt that the gravitator itself is leaking milliamps. Though I could be wrong - after all I didn't dope my dielectric as you will be doing. What I suspect is that anyone who needs milliamps to overcome leakage is using bare wires to feed the capacitor. Those would leak. In my case I used insulated wires. I don't trust using bare wires because I know for fact that they will produce a propulsive effect. I've seen it plenty of times in my own experiments and those of others. Something to watch out for.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org

[amigo]

By the way, I watched this video last night about TT Brown, but not sure if it link was already posted here or the OU forum. Anyway it was very interesting and I recommend it to all:

PWS_UFOCrashCon.wmv

I even ended up buying that book online (there's an eBook version for $9,95)

[dambit]

Hi Amigo,

Thanks for posting that link. The video was very informative with regards to his activities.

Cheers,

Steve

[dambit]

Hi All,

I am still waiting for the resin to arrive. Oh well.

In the mean time I have conducted a few further tests using oil as the dielectric. Olive oil to be exact. This was the first time I had used the full 40 plate assembly in oil.

Because the plates are fixed to the casing, due to there weight, I wanted to confirm that the oil would simply flow around the plates and in doing so provide no motive force. My suspicions were confirmed and I can now say that the use of a liquid dielectric is not suitable for gravitators. I observed that the oil did indeed flow from the negative end to the positive end. I also observed that the suface layer of the oil acted as a return path and that it flowed towards the negative end. Makes sence I suppose, the oil has to repenish itself some how.

I'm not going to bother testing the oil filled gravitator on a pendulum setup, as I am confident that the oil, being a liquid, will make the system inefficient.

It is a shame that this is the case, as a liquid dielectric self heals upon electrical breakdown. I have also decided that before I encase my plates with the polyurethane resin, I will get them cut into thirds. This way I can make three smaller gravitators each using a different dielectric. It also means that they will weigh less, and thats always a good thing.

The first pic was taken while the gravitator had about 10KV being applied to it. The positive terminal is on the left, and you can see the oil try to climb the clip. You can see by the reflection on the surface the motion currents in the oil. At this low voltage the return flow is barely noticable, but once it gets to about 30KV and above they are very evident. The second pic is just to show what it looks like. Please excuse my lack of propper connections to the plates as this was just a temporary setup. The oil insulates them anyway.

Cheers,

Steve

[stevend]

Steve,
Nice photos! I saw the same thing when I did tests of T.T. Brown style saucers back in 1998. It wasn't as obvious on the surface as yours but I had some bubbles on the surface and the bubbles moved from the front where the wire electrode was to the back where the saucer was. Presumably this was due to the moving oil. Photos are at the bottom of this page, though I don't mention the bubbles:
Electrodes spinning around a tower
-Steve(n D.)
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org

[dambit]

You will need around 50KV on those plates though.

My power supply can go up to 180KV if it's immersed in oil, just over 100KV if it's not. My bridge rectifier and smoothing cap are only rated for 80KV though.

I have been having some issues insulating all of the connections within the bridge etc. When I turn out the lights I can see where the corona discharges are happening. I will be encapsulating it all into one unit pretty soon. If however I manage to see some promising results, I will be upgrading my power supply to one that is capable of 500KV & 20mA with a pure DC output. Plenty of power

Cheers,

Steve

[stevend]

The Biefeld-Brown effect results from the fact that electrons have a higher tendency to move to protons rather than protons to electrons. Mainly because protons are more sluggish and have a much higher inertia. Also electrons receive a much higher net ether bombardment.

That's very similar to what Jean-Louis Naudin realized and demonstrated in these tests here:
The Cornille's Electrostatic Pendulum tested by JL Naudin
But instead of protons and electrons, he figured it was a difference in the ionic mobility between positive ions in the air (1.32 (cm/sec)/(volt/cm)) versus negatuve ions (2.51 (cm/sec)/(volt/cm)). The source of the ions were the thin bare wires that were feeding the device. That's why I say don't use bare wires to hang your device from or at all.

If you're hanging your device form wires then they are parallel and what Jean-Louis demonstrated happens but they don't have to be parallel. In my Poynting flow thruster experiments I found all kinds of configurations where ionization due to thin bare wires caused propulsion and when I elminiated them, the propulsion went away.
Poynting Flow Thruster Experiments

These are examples of false positives from the last round of propulsion experimentation back in the latter half of the 1990s and the early 2000s. It'd be good if the next wave of experimenters kept these in mind.

Of course, ionization that keeps all ion interaction within the bounds of the device may still be valid.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org

[Guest]

The key to this thing working is capacitance. The more capacitance between your plates the better. You need as many electrons to one plate as possible and as many positive charges on the other plate as possible. be careful not to use a scheme of plates with alternating charges as the effects could cancel since the negative plate will be attracted in 2 different directions to each positive plate.

@dambit
Your power supply sounds very impressive!
It should definitely be more then enough to harness this effect.

[stevend]

The key to this thing working is capacitance. The more capacitance between your plates the better. You need as many electrons to one plate as possible and as many positive charges on the other plate as possible.

How timely. Just this past week I managed to make a barium titanate and epoxy dielectric with a dielectric constant of 27, though I suspect the one I made today using the same technique may be a little higher. 27 may not sound very high but unless you have the ability to do sintering (pressure and heat to do pure barium titanate), you'll find it's hard to get that high. I posted about this previously here on Energetic Forum but back then my highest was 15.

The trick turned out to be to not make a paste when mixing the barium titanate and epoxy but to keep cutting the mix (I use two plastic knives) and pressing and cutting until you end up with a mix that is all tiny balls, slightly larger than powder size. With that technique I've gotten 86% BaTiO3, 14% epoxy, though today I think I had better. I won't know until tomorrow. And I've been thinking I can do better by not using the whole resulting mix but instead being very chosey to use only the smallest balls and throw away anything bigger.

Photos and details are at:
http://rimstar.org/materials/dielect...tor_batio3.htm
See the April 15, 2010 and June 12, 2010 entries.

Warning: I haven't tested breakdown voltage yet.

Alternatively, you can go get a bunch of doorknob capacitors and use them in parallel. I've done that before. With that approach the dielectric constant is around 3000. Breakdown voltage was around 40kV though.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org

[cody]

power supply

dambit,

Would you please describe your power supply. Ive been looking for a good >100kv design and it sounds like you have a good one. Schematic, parts, pictures or any info would be great.

[wings]

DBD Dielectric Barrier Discharge Actuator :

A jet type actuator called the "Plasma Synthetic Jet" (PSJ) was defined, developed and characterized with and without a flow. The measured speeds of jets could reach 500m/s.

PUMA Project - Plasmas For Aerodynamics Flow Control - Onera

Introduction

Research Topics

Boundary-layer control | CleanEra

UK Fluids Lab


provide the rotation of testatika disc ?