What is Electric Current?

[Harvey]

Converting Radiant energy to electricity is what we call the photoelectric effect. A solar cell converts radiant energy in the UV and other high energy spectrums to electricity - but not very efficiently.

An LED converts electricity to radiant energy in the visible spectrum frequencies and has a good efficiency.

This means that radiation is a discharge of radiant energy.

When Tesla was experimenting with it, he didn't know what it was yet. All he knew is that it radiated away from the circuit. It is why we call them 'Radio'. But now we know they are all the same thing but at different frequencies and magnitudes.

But think about the sound waves and how complex it can be. There is the attack and the decay, the sustain, the wave shape (envelope) and all the various things we can call sound. So the same must be true also for Radiant Energy, it must have different wave shapes. So what you need it to do can be tailored. And now, a secret: Many things can be added together and transmitted as one energy, but later they can all be extracted independently. For example, you can record a philharmonic performance with every single instrument known to man making unique sound at the same time. If you look at the stereo wave it will be just a single changing line of amplitude over time for each channel. But when you listen to it you will know the piano, the violin the drums. So it is with radiant energy, it can be stored and played back and filters can get what it has in detail - in memory.

[sucahyo]

Eddie current is a current inside a wire solid area in perpendicullar direction of electric current flow which will heat up a wire the bigger the diameter of the wire is.

That is why power company use twisted stranded wire and not single giant wire.

For heater application, big solid wire is better.

[Harvey]

Eddie current is a current inside a wire solid area in perpendicullar direction of electric current flow which will heat up a wire the bigger the diameter of the wire is.

That is why power company use twisted stranded wire and not single giant wire.

For heater application, big solid wire is better.

It certainly seems like the intuitive thing doesn't it? Fatter wire, more eddy currents, more heating. But when we test this concept it fails in real life.

Notice this post:
http://www.energeticforum.com/induct...html#post91200

There you will find reference to real tests done on various sizes of coiled N8 resistance wire. A wide range of current, was tested through each wire size and the thermal output was charted. The results of this test are very conclusive and provide solid proof that wire resistance is the greatest factor in current to thermal conversion. Eddy currents play a very tiny role here.

So, from an Foucault Current (eddy current) perspective, the relationship to heating is a bit counter intuitive.

There are other things too that one would like to consider regarding heating, such as Dielectric Heating, Heating due to Proximity Effect, Thermal Conductivity, Peak wavelength of the Thermal Radiation of a particular material etc. All of which play very important parts on how well a heater performs in a given environment with a given stimulus.

It is good to see participation and I always enjoy your input, so please continue to share with us your views and understanding

Something to consider regarding stranded wire:
Wire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And:
Skin effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cheers!

[sucahyo]

Ok, thanks.

It is assumed that resistance is the same. Just like comparing one big wire vs trifilar of 1/3 smaller wire.

If you want to utilize magnetic flux to make heat, why did you refer to nichrome and not soft iron or other ferro magnetic metal?

BTW, I will look forward for comparative result of MOSFET heating circuit vs pure AC at the same frequency and voltage.

[sucahyo]

OK .

This thing has unknowns. Aaron had a lamp turning on, Glen had stuff shutting off, I had my keyboard typing garbage, Mike got some sort of Rash and if I'm not mistaken the SA group are having trouble with noise.

I should contribute mine too then .

Aside from making my keyboard typing garbage, or make monitor vibrating, when spark appear at primary, it can kill computer fan sharing the same power connection located at around 50cm. However, it do not kill the power source fan located at around 150cm. If spark is made continuously my monitor made strange noise and going of and on continuously. Anyone testing high powered radiant maker on 50cm coil (as antenna) is brave

I have a 1A tranformer that heat up and yet my self wound toroid do not while both together producing 12V at 200ma conventional current. My 555 version teach me that 15% duty cycle is cooler on the transistor and coil.

Not yet understood....

[Harvey]

Hi Sucahyo,

The connection between 'sparks' and radio frequency have been known for a very long time:

Spark transmitters

But before Tesla and Marconi, everyone referred to it as radiant energy - because, well . . . it is radiant energy

But let us look at this for a second (or nanosecond ?) - how long does a spark last and why?

When the spark occurs it is because a path is made through the dielectric. This may seem strange where vacuum is the dielectric but it is still true. So the path represents a way for a potential difference to equalize, and when it is doing so, charges are moving and that movement is current.

Remember, the magnetic fields form around the moving charges - not the material itself per se. This is important to understand where charges are moving through a vacuum. So EM radiation will be caused even by a 'spark' in a vacuum.

The problem we have (at least in English) is word definition. Often we choose words that describe the observed event rather than the a root cause. This leads to misunderstandings as we dig deeper to find out what causes the observed events. On a very general level, even among scientists, we associate observation of visible light emissions with a spark event. So we think, if there is no light, then the spark is weak or not there. This is very misleading - because the same event that produces the visible light in our atmosphere may not produce any light at all in another, like a vacuum. In order to produce photons, there must be an interaction between charges that results in an energy transfer requiring the photon emission. Since the vacuum contains few charged particles for such an interaction, we do not get the photon emissions even though the spark occurs. Tesla did many tests to conserve the spark energy for his circuits, quenching the spark gaps etc. He did not have very good success in jumping the vacuum dielectric and now we all know why - there simply is no clearly defined path and the energy tends to disperse rapidly. This is why electromagnetic focusing is needed in CRT technology. When you look at the long neck of the CRT - you get an idea of how far that 'spark' jumps.

The spark inside a fluorescent bulb is similar - but we tend to think of it as an arc because of the continuous nature. But really, the mercury in the tube becomes an ionic carrier for the charges as it vaporizes. These are the charges that interact and produce a great many photons in the upper frequency spectrum away from the infra red. That is why that spark does not produce much heat. If the AC current flowing through a fluorescent tube was to oscillate at RF frequencies instead of 60Hz - then EM radiation would occur at those frequencies and you would have a radio transmitter. Both the light and the EM radiation are different forms of the same thing - Radiant Energy.

Most materials are very good at converting the upper Radiant Energy spectrum to Infra Red which we associate with heat. But - some things do not. See the third heading here Lateral Science - Phosphorus Topics called "The Glow Of Phosphorus" or just search the page for the words "Cold Flame". This may be why phosphorus is used in our TV's and lamps to convert radiant energy emitted in them to visible light while minimizing the heat. Of course the incandescent element itself radiates IR radiant energy and we even have special heat lamp bulbs that maximize this effect.

So how much light, or how much heat, or how much RF energy etc. is radiated from a spark, has a lot to do with the material the spark is flowing through and the charge interactions that occur in that space.

So in technical terms, a spark is an event whereby a dielectric becomes conductive and charge movement occurs to balance out a charge differential. A spark may or may not be accompanied by visible photon emission.

Special Note: EM radiation is closely related to the change in potential over the change in time ratio. Therefore, where resistance or impedance is present which reduces this ratio, EM radiation is reduced. In simple terms, the faster the energy flows through a spark, the greater the magnetic impulse it produces. The energy of a photon is contained in its frequency, not its magnitude.

Questions for pondering:
How do laminated transformer cores reduce eddy currents?
Why does Multi-Gap (Ferrite) material work in a similar or better way?

[ozmatic]

Hi Suchayo,



Anyone testing high powered radiant maker on 50cm coil (as antenna) is brave



I think this may have been directed towards me, as I have such a coil,and your use of the word "antenna" could be absolutely right . But I want to tell you I am not brave - I now activate this circuit very rarely, and from 10 feet away by relay!
There was one man who was brave - Nikola Tesla. He thought nothing of using himself as a ground and pulsing a light bulb with megavolts at megaHz. He cared very little that he deactivated a power station in Colorado Springs from a distance of miles [ a site he chose specifically for its susceptibility to lightning strike!]. He tried the greatest electrical experiment in the history of mankind - and was beaten by base men. Oh yes, and along the way he gave us AC power.
I know that most reading this, know this - but it bears repeating - because this was a truly brave man.
I have an inkling of what he was at, and it frightens the hell out of me, but my curiosity always draws me back. I really want to know whether my coil is a resistor, or when properly tuned, an antenna.
And I called my dog Edison
Chris

[sucahyo]

The connection between 'sparks' and radio frequency have been known for a very long time:

There is different property of spark of very good coil collpase current with the usual single 2N3055 spark. Even if sting oscillator consume only 400mA and 555 driven 3055 consume 2A, the sting oscillator spark disturb the monitor much much more than then 2 Amp version. I think there is added property of coil collapse current that can change the behaviour of a spark.

Tesla did many tests to conserve the spark energy for his circuits, quenching the spark gaps etc.

I think Tesla use quenching not just to conserve spark energy. He try to expand arc region too. and increasing the suddennes of the impulse.


About radiant, it seems we have different understanding of what radiant means.

Converting Radiant energy to electricity is what we call the photoelectric effect. A solar cell converts radiant energy in the UV and other high energy spectrums to electricity - but not very efficiently.

I call that radiant as light. When I mention radiant, I refer to the pain felt by tesla when his device produce impulse wave. The color he see, the effect its produce spesifically on impulse technology.

Light is radiant, but it is not the same radiant mentioned in radiant oscillator.

[sucahyo]

I think this may have been directed towards me, as I have such a coil,and your use of the word "antenna" could be absolutely right . But I want to tell you I am not brave - I now activate this circuit very rarely, and from 10 feet away by relay!

Not to human, but to sensitive and expensive equipment. For human, Tesla even use his impulse as a sauna . Just as long as you don't feel prickling sensation, I think it should be safe.

I believe human have excellent capability to adapt it self to the bad environment.

I mention that because medium diameter coil make my monitor vibrate rather violent at 30cm distance, with only 500mA current.

[Harvey]

Ok, thanks.

It is assumed that resistance is the same. Just like comparing one big wire vs trifilar of 1/3 smaller wire.

If you want to utilize magnetic flux to make heat, why did you refer to nichrome and not soft iron or other ferro magnetic metal?

BTW, I will look forward for comparative result of MOSFET heating circuit vs pure AC at the same frequency and voltage.

My previous post addressing your question "why did you refer to nichrome and not soft iron or other ferro-magnetic metal" was deleted by administration because it contained information they viewed as confrontational. So be it.

I will try to address your question without overstepping the necessary requirements.

1. I did not specify nichrome wire - the use of this was a freak happenstance that occurred purely by accident completely outside of my control.

2. Nickle is ferromagnetic.

I hope this answers your question adequately, the full details can be found elsewhere in these forums or I can forward the actual dialogs that support those truths.

[sucahyo]

Ok.

Can you try to put the nichrome wire in the oven or burn it to red and then see if it still attracted to magnet?

burning is to simulate continuous run on heater.


About electricity, anyone can put a summary of electricity effect and properties?

How many kind if we have to separate electricity?

[Harvey]

Ok.

Can you try to put the nichrome wire in the oven or burn it to red and then see if it still attracted to magnet?

burning is to simulate continuous run on heater.


About electricity, anyone can put a summary of electricity effect and properties?

How many kind if we have to separate electricity?

Regarding the Curie Point of Nickle:
Curie Point of Nickel

Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies

You will need to do your own research to find the Curie Point of the specific Nichrome wire being used (they will all be different by some value).

Let's try and keep this thread on "Electrical Current" topics

Cheers,

[sucahyo]

You will need to do your own research to find the Curie Point of the specific Nichrome wire being used (they will all be different by some value).

Let's try and keep this thread on "Electrical Current" topics

Ok. Just curious since you will be heating it for a long time and wonder if really do not affect its ferro magnetic property. Might aswell burn it at first.

[Harvey]

. . . About electricity, anyone can put a summary of electricity effect and properties?

How many kind if we have to separate electricity?

Since electricity is a change in electric charge in distance or time, the varieties are infinite. This is due to the fact that the distance those charges move can be represented by any number between - infinity and + infinity and there are an infinite number of divisions between an integer distance. The same is true of their velocity, except the limits would be -C to +C, but still an infinite number of divisions exists between any two integer velocities. Then we have variety for movement in space, direction and time. Each of these adds to the endless possibilities.

And then of course, there is a variety of different forms of electrical charges and magnitudes. These can be positive or negative and can be any value to the extremes.

We can have electricity that moves in only one direction, in one path with no change in time. We can have electricity that flows in one direction from a source, through many paths with no change in time. We can have electricity that flows in more than one direction, through multiple paths and changes with time. The possible combinations can boggle the mind.

In our practical applications we have found it beneficial to limit electricity into confines that serve us. So we confine it to conductors and force it to take the path we want it to take. And we apply the flow to the task at hand, using a direct flow (DC) in moving vehicles while using alternating flow (AC) to effect change over long distances. We take electricity from large generators and split it among hundreds or thousands, perhaps millions of different pathways. We push electricity at speeds of 400 cycles per second in computer power supplies and billions of cycles per second in computer chips and radio frequency equipment.

But with all that we do for practicality, we have only brushed the surface of the limitless possibilities that can be explored relative to this amazing form of energy.

[sucahyo]

I see. Thanks.

How about electricity that do not heat up my battery vs the one that do heat it up. Is that the same electricity with different property or the one that do not heat the battery up is not electricity?




BTW, I think there is missunderstanding about the heating nichrome, I was meant to say:
Can you try to put the nichrome wire in the oven or burn it to red, cool it down and then see if it still attracted to magnet?

I ask because I once has a couple of nickel bolt that attracted to magnet that will no longer did after I burn them.