What is Electric Current?

[Harvey]

Core Proximity

Hi Joit,

Thank you for that video - I am like that too, I have the equipment and even a measure of time but no ambition to do the experiments

I see now, what you were saying regarding the induction of two coils - I think

If I understand correctly, the top coil is driven externally by a voltage, and the 'in house made' lower coil is the pick-up coil being monitored by the scope. So as the magnet-core changes position, we get different results for the induction through that core.

One thing that is readily seen, is that when the flux of the magnet-core is perpendicular to the flux of the driven coil, there is a material advantage in that the core extends further into both coils by half of their radius rather than half of their thickness. So from a core perspective, the magnet is better than the air and acts as a better pathway for induction.

We also have the consideration as to what causes induction. It is a change in flux. When the core is parallel so that its magnetized flux is in line with that of the driven coil, we must provide enough driven flux to cause a coercion in the magnet (either to increase it's magnetization or demagnetize it) before a change is observed in the pickup coil. This is because in this configuration, the magnet flux is a relatively uniform circle matching the coil windings and it requires a great deal of energy to create a change in more domains. In other words, in this position we have to change the magnetization of the core to influence the surrounding coil.

But when we turn the core 90°, we have a different situation. Now the two flux fields are not joined up or directly opposing. Instead, we are moving the flux sideways in half of the coil and lengthways in the other half. So we are pushing the magnet flux back and forth like branches in the wind and the coil sees a greater change than before. Even though half of it is no real change, the net differences are much greater than the other configuration.

If we wrap a tube with a single coil and drop a magnet down that tube, which will produce the greater energy? Dropping the magnet with the B lengthwise with the tube, or with the B crossing the tube? That would be an interesting experiment.

What if a steel ball had 6 or 8 magnets stuck to it with N all facing out, and it was dropped down the tube?

[Joit]

Hi Harvey,
No, the coils are not pulsed, the only Current comes from the Magnet inside.
I made only 2 Coils on this tube, that i can compare it, how it looks like,
when the Magnet is at the top from the Coil ( like with this half wounded coil)
or when it turns at the Middle from the Coil.
But the Coils been alternatly connected to the Scope to see, what do happens there.
Later i tried to move another Magnet horizontal up and down but this did not give really Induction.
It seems is better, when the magnet, or the fields, turns like on a shaft up and down.
But maybe it did make a different, that there was still the other Magnet inside.

Beside, as i made the Video, my Washer did still run, it is about 5m away from my Scope, but still did influence the Screen from the Scope.
And anyhow, it did remind as if the Field from the Magnet is like moving a Surface from Water, where you make Waves,
and this 'Water' creates a Action into the Coppercoil, what further produce again a Magnet field out from the Coil.
Anyhow i do think around about it, not sure, what i can figure out from it,
one Idea was, to make may something like a Helicoptor rotor, where the Magnets are some slant,
or, now, to make 3 magnets, 1 magnet inside a Coil, 2 left and right, to really press the Juice out from it.
But i think, i would need to have therefor 3 Motors, what drive each Magnet seperate, and right now, i do consider, how to build something with a Flywheel, and unfortunatel, have some other Things to do.

And another Thing, i still try to consider is, when you create Energy at the Coil, and goes around in another Circuit, then it goes back into the generator coil, and actually fill up this Hole, what the other Pole create, or this negative Potential even, else, the Energy would only do puff away at the Load, and where there are ways to optimize that.

[rave154]

Joit,

interesting experiment there

i like your setup you have there..... have you or could you exapnd the setup by adding another magnet ( i presume they are out of micro wave ovens? ) on the outside of the coil....but still in line with the two magnets on the inside?

you might have to do this by hand for the 3rd magnet as you turn the handle to turn the other two magnets and kind of synchronise your movements.

it would be interesting to observe the differences in waveforms of your original setup.....compared to when a 3rd magnet is introduced also on the outside, also that 3rd magnet can be placed/ held in two different ways of course....N-pole facing the two interior magnets....and....S-pole facing the two interior magnets.

good work

[Harvey]

Hi Joit,

When Energy is converted in a coil, it manifests as voltage (EMF) across that coil. If the ends of the coil get connected to a load, then a path exists for the potential to equalize through that path and current will flow. The more energy is converted, the more can be applied to do work.

So, what we see as electric current is the charge equalization of that potential. So when all the charge is equalized, the voltage is the same everywhere, and no more current can flow. At this point the energy is used because it was applied to do work in the load and the result is no more voltage.

I need to look at your video again - I saw the arm moving, but I didn't see any force being applied to move it - so I missed something and imagined that you were pulsing the coil.

So, then you were getting an output from the coil just from moving the magnet by some force, and the orientation of the magnetic field was being demonstrated, right?

The magnets are ring magnets magnetized through? Or are they motor or speaker magnets? Knowing the magnetic field orientation would be helpful for us .

Cheers,

Harvey

[Joit]

Hi,
Yes, the Magnets are from a Microwave, and they are axial magnetized like this one

I did do holding another Magnet beside, and tried to align it or let it repell with the Magnets inside,
but all what was obviously, that it did break the Wave sometimes into 2 Hills,
and even not sure, if this is usefull.
My Point at putting more Magnets beside was, to increase the Amperage,
because Voltage is only speed, means, how fast the Magnets are turning.
The more Amperage you will get, when you have higher Pressure or a stronger Magnetic Field,
but it does not effect the Voltage.
Like with weak Magnets you can create only a certain Amount of Ah,
but with Neo's you should be able to make much more Ah or, in this case, maybe more mA.
Even, when i did speed up once a Coil like this with a Drill,
and at a certain Point, it seems as if the Coil was saturated, the Voltage did not increase very much anymore, but the Amperes did, that was at about, 1500Rpm with about #24 AWg Wire.

Anyhow, the strength of the Magnets are like the Wings from a Waterpump,
the weaker Magnets have only Wings, what have the half Radius from the Body,
and therefor, they only can build up a certain Amount of Pressure when there is a Load at the Circuit.
Stronger Magnets just make from the beginning a stronger Pressure and therefor more Amperage.
And you allready know actually, Amperage is the Amount of Current, what can pass through a Resistance.
But unfortunatly, you cannot see it really at the Scope, at this ol' Hook it shows the Lines some brighter,
but i cannot really see, how much more it is.
And maybe there can be advantage with additional Magnets outside,
that, when the Poles 'swing' in to the inner Magnets, that it supports the innner Magnet better at turning.

So, what we see as electric current is the charge equalization of that potential. So when all the charge is equalized, the voltage is the same everywhere, and no more current can flow. At this point the energy is used because it was applied to do work in the load and the result is no more voltage.

Yes, i see it anyhow in the same Way, and the Potential is between the Poles once,
and the other Potential, what may is some more complicated,
at the Relation from the Speed of the Magets inside the Coils,
the Voltage, what they create there, what cause anyhow a new Potential between the Magnets, let me say in my assumtion, how fast the one Pole 'pushes' Energy out, and the other Side is filled again with the Energy.
Anyhow i see there the Explanation for it, why at both Poles almost the same Amount of Current runs.

What would be interesting, or, i may do not know, is, when you now have as a Load something, what creates a lot of Heat,
is then there lesser Energy at one Side, when you measure both Poles,
or still the same Amount of Energy running before and after the Load, and the Heat is created in an inductive Way.

This is maybe opposite to the Opinion, that there are 2 Currents running,
but when i look how magents are made, namely with DC,
and DC is actually a Flow only in one Direction, then it can be anyhow for me a Picture,
that a Magnet is build like a Pice, where you shoot a Bullet trough.
One Side has an Impact and the other Side an exit, what is formed like a Hill or a Vulcan outside.
You push the Energy from one side only around in a Circle, and it arrives at the other End at the Coil again at this throughs of the other Pole.
When you have now a Load at the Path, you saturate the Wire, and it creates a Jam of Energy what creates also the Backemf.
When you saturate a Coil, you 'fire' with pressure Energy into the Load, ie here as load another Coil,
and after disconnecting one Pole, the Energy will deplete into the Pole,
what is still conneted there,
where the EM Field, what is build around the Coil still affect, what Amount will be equalized.
I remeber as someone said once about Diodes, they tried to block the Current flow from 2 Sides, but they could not make it, that they can block it from one Side, thats why we got Diodes like we have now, only in one Direction.

When Energy is converted in a coil, it manifests as voltage (EMF) across that coil. If the ends of the coil get connected to a load, then a path exists for the potential to equalize through that path and current will flow. The more energy is converted, the more can be applied to do work.

And sorry for the Quality of the Vid, i agree that you dont really see a lot from the Waves.

[Harvey]

Flux to Wire Relationships

Hi Joit,

I took some time to diagram this:

Zoom Picture


Cheers!

[Joit]

Hi Harvey
and Thanks for the Picture, i did backup it, and it seems to pretty shows,
what i do see, but anyhow, in this case a Picture says less, and need another thousand Words
I still need to let it settle down a bit, something is anyhow missing on it,
but at all, it looks nice. Ty again.

[Harvey]

Hi Harvey
and Thanks for the Picture, i did backup it, and it seems to pretty shows,
what i do see, but anyhow, in this case a Picture says less, and need another thousand Words
I still need to let it settle down a bit, something is anyhow missing on it,
but at all, it looks nice. Ty again.

Yes, there is two things missing from this picture that are important.

Notice in the top row, second picture from the left which represents the Front View with a horizontal B vector - in that picture there is a RED arc. That arc vaguely represents the rotation path of the magnet - or the sweep of the B vector. It is missing from all the other pictures but it represents how far the magnet moves before it stops and moves the other way.

Also, what is missing, is how fast the magnet is moving in all cases.

These two missing parts are present in your video though, and by combining the two - your video and this picture, then we get a better overall collection of information to help with the understanding.

We know that the EMF of our output is proportional to the speed and direction of the motion combined with the quantity of coils, strength of the field and the angle by which the B vector crosses the loop. All of these factors affect the amplitude of the EMF. You may recall that in this post
I described briefly those things. Notice Here that we have the formula again that breaks these things down into their different parts as thus: or to type it here: E = -N * (change in flux / change in time) where E is in volts, N is number of coil turns, Flux is in Webers and Time is in seconds.

There is a minus sign there to show the direction of the voltage and this is what facilitates Lenz's Law.

Now, you will recall that the Flux is angle dependent. as indicated in this formula where B represents the magnetic field strength, A is the area encircled by one of your coil windings, and Theta is the ANGLE between the B vector and the plane that the coil is laying in.

So, let us see the parts that make this up that I mentioned before.

Speed: How fast the magnet is moving is the part shown as dΦB / dt. Why? Because the magnet has different flux across the pole surface, so it is the dΦB also known as the change in flux. When it moves, the change in time is the dt which like saying 'delta time' for any infinitesimal slice measured.

Direction of Motion: This is also contained in thedΦB which is the different flux density across the surface of the magnet. If the change in flux as seen at the coil is increasing over time, then the direction of the magnet is getting closer and if it is decreasing, then it is going farther. So the change in flux seen by the coil is dependent (partly) on the direction of motion.

Number of Coils: This is a standard scaler number of how many turns your coil consists of as denoted by N

Strength of the field: This is how strong your magnet is and is part of the value denoted by B. It is the magnitude portion of B that we are referring to. But B also has a directional component.

Angle by which the B vector crosses the loop: This is probably the most important factor you are trying to impress in your video. It is the inside part of ΦB that is made from Cos Θ.That Θ is the angle between B direction and the NORMAL of the loop. Remember my illustration of the corn growing? The corn grows NORMAL to the surface of the ground. If you draw a loop around your corn, the loop is laying in the plane of the ground surface. So, if you lay just one winding flat on a horizontal table, the NORMAL is going vertical - very important! When B is parallel to the coil NORMAL, then Θ is ZERO and Cos(ZERO) = 1. But when B is orthogonal to the coil NORMAL, then Θ is 90° and Cos(90) = ZERO !!! and ZERO times any number is still ZERO. So, when the B is the same as the normal, then you have your MAX flux, and when it is laying flat with the coil you have no flux.


But in your video, you are showing an effect that seems to be opposite where the appearance is that when the B is orthogonal to the loop NORMAL you get more EMF than when it is parallel to the loop NORMAL. And of course, on the surface we have an apparent discrepancy between the results and the mathematical prediction.


How can we resolve this? The cause of the discrepancy is rooted in a fundamental mistake of assumption. The mistake is assuming that the B is a straight line when in fact it is always curving. In fact, externally at the equatorial middle of the magnet half way between the N & S poles, it is completely REVERSED!

The equation assumes that B is uniform both in magnitude and direction. But with a magnet, neither is true. The magnitude changes over the surface of the magnet as does the direction. So it is is physically impossible to ever truly get ZERO flux between a magnet and a coil. We can get reasonably close by using very large magnets and very small coils though.

So while you were trying to prove that orientation of B is the big factor in the produced EMF, what you have really proven is that the Curvature of B where it intersects the coil is a more important aspect than the pole direction. And this is what my picture is illustrating. The flux density within that curvature does not change and if the curve is aligned with the coil then little change in flux is seen by the coil and thus little EMF is produced. But when the curve crosses the coil, then a greater change is seen and a greater EMF is produced.

I think it is these types of arrangements such as yours that motivated Helmholtz to devise a way of having a relatively straight B for testing things in. The result was his Helmholtz Coil where the magnetic vector between the two coils is almost a straight line.

One thing is certain, there is an infinite variety of configurations between magnets and coils and the motion between them and no one institution can claim to have evaluated them all. But, we do find by experiment that at the finite analysis, where we know the precise values of each vector and magnitude in interaction, the reality does match the mathematical predictions - so far

Now, how to measure the approximate current with your scope:
Find the specifications for your input resistance including the probe for your scope. Lets say it is 100M Ohm combined. Now place a resistor in series with your coil that matches your scope input resistance. This gives half the current flowing in the scope and half in your series resistor. The voltage the scope reads across this parallel resistance is proportional to the current through this parallel resistance. I = E / R. This will also tell you the power you are producing by the equation P = EČ/ R where R is the parallel resistance of your scope and the added resistor.

We don't often consider the internal resistance of our measuring devices as having an impact on the readings, but it does - especially in low power situations.

[Joit]

Hi,
Yes, the Formulas do match so far (must), but the do need it anyway
for the Industry, therefor i dont think, someone can hide something.
I think more, the Errors are still there, what we dont know.

I do still thinking about this Picture, maybe the difference in this Potential there
with the Waves are a caused by the differnt Size of the Spins.
Wissen Magnetmotor.at
Click the green arrows below for more Pictures.
But it seems anyway not so simple, i think they say on this Side,
that a Magnet is made from a s + n Pole at one Side, but i cant really confirm it.
But they say also, that at each N Pole a S Pole is shining through and opposite.

So far to the Pictures, it tells me, that its better, to
once, saturate the Coils best as you can, maybe flat Coils are even better,
because along the magnetized top surface from the Body of the Magnet is the field at strongest,
when you only wanna 'push' the Coils,
and, that it is better to face the Coils with the magnets,
When we just move a Magnet inside along the Coil, it is only the Flux at the Border, where the Flux is crossing.
Actually you see, this Model from a Magnet moving inside the Coil, what creates Current is still a bit uncomplete.
But this is all anyway almost common Stuff, the most Generator work in that Way,
to 'push' the Coils, but only with one Field from the Magnet.

[Harvey]

Spin Tronics

Hi,

Yes those pictures represent Howard Johnson's research on certain magnets he did map out.

I have some magnets here, that are just like that with N and S on the same face. Some show a design like a tear drop or if you know the shape of a paisley like I have on some ties. Who knows, maybe this is where the old design came from

But . . . most magnets do not have this so much and the poles are usually overbearing with one polarity. So even if the small domains are very strong to oppose that overbearing force, their flux will be hidden quickly because their size is small in comparison.

But you do raise a good point regarding the magnets you are using. I have mapped some of my speaker magnets and they are definitely not uniform, so this could be true for you too.