Ethics - You built it! Now what are you going to do with it!?

[thedude]

Hello ESM members!

I'm going to go out on a limb here and make the suggestion that there might be a number of us here on these forums, who have contemplated the day that our efforts are vindicated and we manage to put together a legitimate example of a renewable energy device that is useful and possibly marketable. Well..., at least I know I have. I'd like to suggest that we hypothesize that we have just that sort of thing. Nothing overly revolutionary for instance, but perhaps we've managed to build a small but functional renewable energy device or at least something we feel could contribute to the current state of technology. The very next question has to be, what do we do with it now?

I've seen a number of discussions, with out being specific, on these, and other forums, regarding potential inventions and its not surprising when I discover that the inventor has a marketing and feasibility plan devised. Of course, we all need to survive the only way we can in today's economy. So does it bother me when i see the members here and on other forums turning open source channels on to their discovery, then going on to deny the very communities they worked with in their discovery process with a basic schematic? Explaining that they will be selling it to you? Well...my answer is yes. But its a personal question. So I'll elaborate first and I hope to hear some rebuttal on this from others.

So what are the ethics? Once again, our ethics are our own. Plato said,"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.". My personal beliefs are that the economy of western society, if not the world, have become so fundamentally controlled that it goes so far as to actually hinder the natural technological evolution of the human species as a whole. I believe that due to circumstances beyond our control that this capitalistic form of economy can not persist very much longer, especially given the encroaching environmental and ecological changes that are likely to see in the future.

That being said, what should we do then? Do we try to get patents anyway, just in case? Do we even try to embark upon the ocean of bureaucracy that it would actually take to get a useful renewable energy device into the market place? Even if we were extremely fortunate maybe we could have your invention out in the market place with all safety approval and standards satisfied in what?... 5-10 years if your lucky? Why wouldn't we just publish the schematic right here, don't patent it, maybe sell a few of the first prototypes on ebay or something? lol. hmmm? In my case, I will state right here that no matter what i would do, I will alway have a schematic and a video to show and it would only exist due to the information I've gleamed from everyone here anyway.

I'm often struck by how an inventor will gather up all that has been done before him and then suddenly when they have a "device" its as though they created the very technology themselves. Ya thats it! It runs on the "Dudedic Force". Ya I like the sound of that!

Anyone gone through this? Anyone have any suggestions? Would love to hear from experience.

[Schpankme]

Hello ESM members!

I'm going to go out on a limb here and make the suggestion that there might be a number of us here on these forums, who have contemplated the day that our efforts are vindicated and we manage to put together a legitimate example of a renewable energy device that is useful and possibly marketable. Well..., at least I know I have. I'd like to suggest that we hypothesize that we have just that sort of thing. Nothing overly revolutionary for instance, but perhaps we've managed to build a small but functional renewable energy device or at least something we feel could contribute to the current state of technology. The very next question has to be, what do we do with it now?

I've seen a number of discussions, with out being specific, on these, and other forums, regarding potential inventions and its not surprising when I discover that the inventor has a marketing and feasibility plan devised. Of course, we all need to survive the only way we can in today's economy. So does it bother me when i see the members here and on other forums turning open source channels on to their discovery, then going on to deny the very communities they worked with in their discovery process with a basic schematic? Explaining that they will be selling it to you? Well...my answer is yes. But its a personal question. So I'll elaborate first and I hope to hear some rebuttal on this from others.

So what are the ethics? Once again, our ethics are our own. Plato said,"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.". My personal beliefs are that the economy of western society, if not the world, have become so fundamentally controlled that it goes so far as to actually hinder the natural technological evolution of the human species as a whole. I believe that due to circumstances beyond our control that this capitalistic form of economy can not persist very much longer, especially given the encroaching environmental and ecological changes that are likely to see in the future.

That being said, what should we do then? Do we try to get patents anyway, just in case? Do we even try to embark upon the ocean of bureaucracy that it would actually take to get a useful renewable energy device into the market place? Even if we were extremely fortunate maybe we could have your invention out in the market place with all safety approval and standards satisfied in what?... 5-10 years if your lucky? Why wouldn't we just publish the schematic right here, don't patent it, maybe sell a few of the first prototypes on ebay or something? lol. hmmm? In my case, I will state right here that no matter what i would do, I will alway have a schematic and a video to show and it would only exist due to the information I've gleamed from everyone here anyway.

I'm often struck by how an inventor will gather up all that has been done before him and then suddenly when they have a "device" its as though they created the very technology themselves. Ya thats it! It runs on the "Dudedic Force". Ya I like the sound of that!

Anyone gone through this? Anyone have any suggestions? Would love to hear from experience.

I'm going to ... manage to put together a legitimate ... renewable energy device that is ... marketable ... we've managed to build a small but functional renewable energy device ... something we feel could contribute to the current state of technology ... what do we do with it now?

with out being specific ... regarding potential inventions ... when I discover that the inventor has a marketing and feasibility plan devised ... we all need to survive ... in today's economy ... it bothers me when i see ... open source ... to deny ... discovery process with a basic schematic ... they will be selling it to you ... So I'll elaborate first and I hope to hear some rebuttal...

our ethics are our own ... the world, have become so fundamentally controlled ... to actually hinder ... technological evolution ... capitalistic form of economy can not persist very much longer ... given the encroaching environmental and ecological changes ... in the future...

what should we do ... get patents anyway ... Do we even try ... to get a useful renewable energy device into the market place ... if we ... could have your invention out in the market ... Why wouldn't we just publish the schematic ... don't patent it ... sell ...on ebay ... In my case ... I will always have a schematic and a video to show...

often ... an inventor ... when they have a "device" its as though they created the very technology themselves...

Anyone gone through this? Anyone have any suggestions? Would love to hear from experience.

Schpankme

“If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.” - Will Rogers

[Richie_asg1]

For me, I think it is a matter of scale.

If you invent a device that makes it easier for people do do a task, then fine - do searches, file for patent, wait , pay , wait some more, pay again, develop, get your patent, go on the road, find a buyer or set up a company to produce it.
I think that after all that you B**dy well deserve the profits.


But - if it's built on others work, developed at the same time - using prior art, then it would be difficult to patent anyway. Therefore difficult to sell to interested parties. In this case there is no reason why not publish freely and give full instructions. After all, you didn't do the major part of the work, so would be a bit gauling to take credit for all the work.

If you do happen to come up with something big - I mean BIG, that would change the world for the better (in your eyes) - like the creation of a working computer based on memristors, then I think it would have world-wide energy implications. It would then be a benefit to disclose it as openly as possible, as completely as possible in order for the action to be implemented immediately.
You will become a hero no doubt - attain immortality alongside Tesla, Edison, Rudolf Diesel, and a string of others.
You will then be a prize for any company you work with, and make your fortune that way.

So many inventions are developed, patented - then bought by the very companies they would replace. Thus any energy invention is likelyto be bought by an oil company - just to keep their profits up.

I came across one the other day:-
A CO2 device that could be attatched to a flat bottle of Coke (or any carbonated drink) - to inject new CO2 and thus make the drink usable again.
Ideal !!
A search came up with a device - patented around 1940 - and still owned......By the cokacola company.
It seems that they would rather sell you another bottle of "The real thing" than let you use the flat one you've got.

However - if you want to shout about using a bicycle tyre inflator to carbonate your drinks - go ahead.... As long as you don't manufacture it.

I'm just saying the inventions that benefit the majority, are bought by the minority to keep them quiet.

[cody]

Hi dude,
Good question, something i have been thinking about too. I have been working on a project that might be exactly what you are describing so i have been wondering how to handle it if it works out. Its nothing major, but something that might be usefull, nothing to get too excited over. I agree with a lot of your points. Here is how i plan on handeling it:

-Apply for a patent with the understanding that i will be doing all the production and sales myself with no outside investors, so i will own the rights to it.

-Freely distribute all the information for building the device with the agreement that it may not be sold without my permission.

Thats pretty much my plan, i realize it probally would not work for devices that would require mass production and distribution, but on a small scale i think will work. I think the ultamate solution cannot be achieved until the human race evolves a little more.

Cody

[Ted Ewert]

How many "free energy" devices have been developed or patented? Hundreds.
How many "free energy" devices have been successfully marketed? Zero.
Anyone see a pattern here? Open sourcing is the ONLY way we're going to get a viable technology developed and widly distributed. Anyone who thinks they're going to get rich by keeping their device secret is only doing exactly what the Powers That Be want. Greed is the one thing that ensnares every inventor, and the one thing counted on by those doing the ensnaring.
Trying to market a device through the traditional process of patenting, acquiring investment capitol and then manufacturing is virtually impossible. There are a hundred perfectly legal ways of preventing your product from ever seeing the light of day. Hundreds of guys have tried it and nobody has made it yet. How could anyone think they would be different?
We don't have a "free" market economy. You're only free to market something if you have the financial power to do so. Nobody has the financial power to market a free energy device, not even Bill Gates. It aint going to happen folks.
Now, if we work together and develop a device, at least we can all build one for ourselves. Maybe even quietly sell a few on the side to friends and neighbors. This circumvents their control mechanisms. If enough are built, the word will start to get around. They can't stamp out all the little fires, and eventually a big enough fire will start that can't be controlled.
This is the only way I see anything positive happening. Greed and secrecy will just perpetuate the status quo and bankrupt the inventor. Open sourcing is our only hope.

Cheers,

Ted

[rickoff]

Mega dittos, Ted.

[Cloxxki]

Even if I decide to share my device with the world, and only expect a reward after it's helped people... I still might patent it, to use the big corporate weapon against itself. Requesting a patent is like $200, and keeps the vultures cages for about 2 years, giving you time to roll out your plans, and possibly even accept (non-exclusive, very important) licensing contracts.
Part of the contract would need to be a clause forcing the licensee to actually make an x number of units, at a given maximum price, onto the free market. No shelving allowed!

I want to believe in the good of mankind. I do believe gentleman's agreements are a strong tool, for both parties. If you find a good (wo)man, and shake their hand, most of the times, it should work out to the best of both your capabilities. I just wouldn't apply my faith in mankind on the likes of Gore, and would be hesitant even with Branson now.

My fame as the inventor of this crazy technology, I'd use to be invited for paid talks. At universities, producing companies, exhibitions, etc. It's a good living. And at all times I would make very clearly that I have held back no secrets, my plans published are fully functional. Too late to kill me now! Also, if possible, I would put precautions in place to make sur that an unhoped assasination of me, would be elaborately recorded.

The invention will need to come from a good person. Else, this whole thread is useless. The bad person will find a bad buyer, get a big reward, and the world will never see it.

[nat1971a]

I agree with Ted. How may of you have gotten your free energy device to the masses and lived to tell about it. I can't see any....So i don't understand why people are trying to patent them.

We have to empower the planet by giving it away. It is that simple. The technological evolution will be astouding.

[Stealth]

FE and OU devices

Ted hit the nail on the head. No FE or OU device will be allowed to be purchased by the public. If you want to get rich, there are many more things to invent that can be sold to the general public with any repurcutions.I have given away two such ideas that have already been patented,because I didn't want to go through all the process with one, and the other was freely given because of the control my company had on me regarding patents. If I had patented it myself, they would have taken it. FE and OU machines are best open sourced to allow the public an opportunity to replicate them. Anyway, next year both China and India will have FE machines available for purchase. It will be interesting to see what the US does to try to prevent these from entering the market here. I suppose, if you can obtain some contacts, you could buy one off the black market next year.When these are released, it should have a profound effect on the free energy movement. So open souce your invention now, or invent something that a company will buy and produce, and get royalties from.Good Luck. Stealth

[cody]

I believe there is still good reasons for patenting. If you make a device and freely give the plans to everyone, than anyone else could take your device and patent it themselves. Once they steal your idea and patent it, you will then be required by law to accept their rights to the patent, which will most likely mean that no one will be allowed to build the device. However if you get a patent, you then own the rights to it, so you can allow everyone the right to build it and have the patents protection to do whatever you want with it, including giving it away. So a patent may not nessecarily be a bad thing, it can actually help insure the devices protection from evil hands that would keep it from you, but that all depends on what you choose to do with it. In a perfect world, i agree that we could do without patenting process, but i think the world is currently far from perfect. But i do think it may also be posible to go without the patent and hope that the idea spreads like a wildfire to the point that it would be impossible to stop the movement of the device. Either way will probally be difficult.

[Cloxxki]

Actually, if you publish well enough, no-one will ever be able to patent it. EVEN YOU. If it's not new, it cannot be patented. If it's been published on, it's apparently not new anymore. That's how I understand it works.

If you go into the trouble of patenting, you will be able to decide who gets licences, even if you give them away to them at a symbolic price. If you hate Ford, they'll be the last ones to lauch a car on water or air you've invented, namely 20 years after your patent was granted, thus expired.

Perhaps expired patents should be looked into better.

[Matthew Jones]

The Tesla Switch

I am putting the final touches on a very big Tesla switch, 5 kw AC system.
6 batteries, a motor, and Alternator or generator, Some high priced relays and pre assembled IC, and an inverter.
Basically I am just hashing through a few of the mechanical aspects of it and trying to incorporate some safety. 90% percent of the parts are UL approved.
So what am I gonna do?
I'm gonna write it up schematic pictures and parts list so anyone can feel free to build one.
Even if they want to patent it or improvements on it. Screw it let them catch the heat.

I am not going to patent it, but I will market it. How? It will be considered an Island Solar system. The system need supplemental power that can be provided by a generator attached to a motor, or solar if it available. 36 states (and counting) as far as I can find have no regulation on DC or low voltage systems included High Output Solar system and definitely have no legislation or code on Island Systems. The regulation starts at the UL 1471 connection to the grid or house.(In other words the Inverter) Its that simple.

Who would believe that 6 batteries and some parts can give you an indefinite supply power? NO ONE.
Or at least thats been my experience. Until I show them. And if they understand Energy even a little bit they start see it working. Then they want one.
If I sold one I would charge enough to pay the electrician who hooked it to the panel side of the meter, and for the installation of the transfer switch. I would probably charge enough to build half of another system. But definitely I would make some money for future builds. Maybe so I could give few away to people who needed a reduction in the budget.

I guess with these subjects always comes the talk of the HIGH CABAL. What would they do. Probably nothing. What are they gonna do. Admit it works. Get court orders to have the installed devices removed. NO WAY. They gotta go to court for that. Then again they got to admit for better or worse that it works. Maybe its not safe but it works.
Or maybe they will threaten to cut off any existing service. Do you think the person that had the device is going to beg for there service when they see how cheap and affordable they can make there own UNREGULATED power.

SO why not try to market it to everyone? Simple. You can only change so many peoples opinion or assumptions of how things work. So change those peoples thought on the subject and let them deal with the rest.
Teach other people how to build them. Let it grow.
Small community based change. Thats the only solution. Nothing else will work.

It all goes back to what TED said about a pattern. People who manage to build a system that would be beneficial want to make a big splash "Change the World" And that crap don't work. The odds are always against you.

But one at time, well thats not hard. I've showed hundreds of people the Tesla switch in its simplistic form. And most of those people I am still in touch with want to know when a good things coming.

Its coming soon.

The question you have to ask is will you respond, and how? Do you want be the greedy one? Do you really want to settle for just getting rid of your power bill while enlightening others? Is taking power away from wealth as good to you as taking cash away from consumers? Can you deal with the backlash of the people who do not want change?
Would you invest in your own, knowing the outcome might be negative?
The final question is, whats your price? Everything is for sale even YOU, no matter how righteous you feel. Something can sway you to sell.
Can you handle it?
Think about it.

Matt

[Aaron]

patent or public domain

Apply for a patent with the understanding that i will be doing all the production and sales myself with no outside investors, so i will own the rights to it.

-Freely distribute all the information for building the device with the agreement that it may not be sold without my permission.

Cody,

I have a few friends that patented some of their inventions, was heavily
involved in all the business aspects of it from manufacturing to marketing
and they did very, very well. They are the exception to the rule. None of
those devices were in the energy field, they were in the medical field and
had to deal with the fda - almost just as bad but they made it. Not only
medical - world's largest embroidery press, fail safe pull pins on fire
extinguishers licensed to American Fire, net play pins, etc...

You will own the rights to it for sure and if you really want everyone to
have the information, all you have to do is simply tell the truth in the
patent about everything. Anyone can look it up. Anyone has a right to
build something from someone else's patent for personal use - and they
don't have to ask.

As far as someone selling it, the patent doesn't protect you in the sense
that the patent cannot stop someone else from making your design and
selling it a profit. All it means is that IF/WHEN someone does rip you off, IF
you have the money to take them to court, the federal govt will say,
"Yes, you are the inventor and have rights to it." So in other words, like
most contracts, they're only as good as the money you can feed it
if you ever have to enforce it. The govt will not enforce it for you, you
have to come up with the money to do it yourself - they will take your
side when you do.

Another issue is if you have a patent, most patents, even good ones are
easy to "break". Another friend of mine worked for Art Linkletter as a
patent breaker for toy patents. He looked at the existing patents and found
ways to change the concept to accomplish the same thing, etc... and
if is just a design patent, then they can be broken by just rearranging the
design. So you could get a patent and think you're protected until someone
with more money comes along, breaks your patent and goes into full scale
manufacturing and then you can't even compete with the economy of scale
they're dealing with. So, unless you fully cover yourself in a patent with
every conceivable design (impossible to do), you could get left in the dust
by simply donating an idea for free to some corporation. It happens all
the time.

If you want to prevent someone else from patenting your unique invention,
and if you want everyone to have the design to build it for personal use,
simply post it publicly for the world to see - then it is in the public domain
and if it is in the public domain, it is not able to be patented.

The benefits you get is really just personal satisfaction knowing you
invented it and a few years down the line, like many independent inventors,
nobody will remember your name - that is just the reality of it. But if it
was something truly remarkable, they just might. My great great great
uncle John Pemberton invented Coca Cola, the most famous soft drink
in the world but hardly anyone even knows who he was.

You can place it into public domain and still make it and sell it. You couldn't
stop anyone else from making and selling it but it shouldn't matter if you just
want it out there. Plus, there is no company that can handle the entire
world even if they wanted to compete with you on your own invention.

The key is to find a niche market you enjoy that your product fits into
and simply mass dominate it. You can do very well that way if you know
what you're doing. There is nothing wrong with dominating a niche market
where nobody else is even playing the game - and if the plans are public,
anyone else could build them and sell them too - but it shouldn't even
affect you if you position yourself right.

Specific to energy technologies, I know a few that never patented and
are millionaires from it working behind the scenes keeping their technology
proprietary. They work with mining companies, etc... that pay big bucks
to benefit from their technology - they set it up, they run it and
maintenance it and they never disclose how their technology works
because it is irrelevant. The companies contracting them simply want the
benefits and it is worth it to them to pay for it.

Some people may have a problem with this approach working with some
big money companies behind the scenes but the fact about it is that this
is about the only "acceptable" way unusual technologies can make money
by keeping it out of the public eye, keeping quiet and not rocking the boat.

What is good about this is that it empowers and puts a lot of money in
the pocket of the inventor directly. They deserve to be paid good for their
intellectual property that can save companies a fortune. They also want
these things to be available to the public someday when it will be allowed
and what prevents them from doing it sooner is some greed, they don't
want to reveal their secrets even though placing it into the public domain
could help a lot of people - in any case, nobody has a right to judge them
for it.

just my 2 cents for now

[cody]

Good points Aaron, i hadnt really considered how people can weesel around your patent. So for your idea on posting it publicly, what would be the best approach. Something like a dated pdf with detailed information and construction techniques? What would be the best way to publicly post it?

Cody

[Matthew Jones]

Post it HERE!! Stamped signed and sealed in the public record...
Accompanied with downloadable PDF

Matt