Hidro- is a Hydrodynamic Cycle Techn

[ltseung888]

The theory behind the Hidro invented by James Kwok?

From:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post137659

The theory behind the Hidro invented by James Kwok Reply 18

Ashtweth brought my attention to the working invention by James Kwok called Hidro. The brief description is as follows:

Hidro is a new discovery which can advance education. The technology parallels that of a submarine, which uses buoyancy, gravity, gas density and hydrostatic pressure gradients to ascend and descend. Hidro does the same but drives a generator through this motion. All these factors produce CONSTANT motion and make it possible to harness energy freely from the environment.

Since Mr. James Kwok is also Chinese, I paid special attention to his invention. The first post is in reply 18 of the above mentioned thread. This is the second post.

One question the average person may ask is:
Does the James Kwok Hidro use gravitational energy? Is it a form of unbalanced wheel?

My answer is NO. The reasons are:

1. If he uses gravitational energy from the falling submarine container, that will be very limited. The maximum energy is governed by the formula “potential energy = mgh” where m is mass of the container, g is the gravitational constant and h is the height. This submarine container does not fall in vacuum. It falls inside a water column. The downward force will be opposed by the buoyancy (= volume x density of water x g) and the water resistance. He has to bring up another submarine container at the same time with that limited force.

2. If he uses energy from air (formula in reply 18), he can control the speed of ascent of the submarine container. He does not need to rely on the buoyancy alone. He can jet out some of the water + Air in the submarine container. That will give a very high upward force. He is effectively firing a torpedo! That force is much higher than what step 1 can possibly provide.

3. Most people (even scientists) may mistakenly think that the energy supplied to compress the air is the total Input Energy. They are mistaken. Air is not a fuel but an Energy Carrier. The total Input Energy should be the sum of the Epump + Eair. Epump is the energy supplied. Ein is the Energy carried into the submarine container by air.

4. For a 100% efficient system Eout should be equal to Epump +Ein. Ein is FREE. It is the bring-in air energy. It is the energy freely from the environment mentioned in the last sentence of the brief description.

5. James Kwok can control the output power by adjusting the “torpedo jet valve”; the actual pressure of the compressed air; and the ratio of water and air in the rising submarine container. Salute to him and his team’s brilliant engineering.

6. In other words, Mr. James Kwok is using the energy from still air. Air is constantly flowing in and out of his Hidro device. That device cannot be a CLOSED system. Energy is carried by the forced flowing air. The device will run cold. This can easily be checked by measuring the temperature of the air around the top of the tower.

This is my analysis. Others are welcome to put forward their analysis. The World will learn better and faster with such scientific input.

More servers are coming. Amen.

[ashtweth]

Hi Rod sadly the guy is not open sourcing and this nothing to do with me. I do know tho

1) You cannot replicate this from his info on the net
2) He is not going to open source

So it is a waste of time jumping up and down about this, i have a job to try and get it this out there. Its a real working device that's on the market now. And with the coming food crisis and others, i am not wasting any time .
Thats where the opportunity is, we are all needed to get the job done

Ash

[ashtweth]

From:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post137659



Since Mr. James Kwok is also Chinese, I paid special attention to his invention. The first post is in reply 18 of the above mentioned thread. This is the second post.

One question the average person may ask is:
Does the James Kwok Hidro use gravitational energy? Is it a form of unbalanced wheel?

My answer is NO. The reasons are:

1. If he uses gravitational energy from the falling submarine container, that will be very limited. The maximum energy is governed by the formula “potential energy = mgh” where m is mass of the container, g is the gravitational constant and h is the height. This submarine container does not fall in vacuum. It falls inside a water column. The downward force will be opposed by the buoyancy (= volume x density of water x g) and the water resistance. He has to bring up another submarine container at the same time with that limited force.

2. If he uses energy from air (formula in reply 18), he can control the speed of ascent of the submarine container. He does not need to rely on the buoyancy alone. He can jet out some of the water + Air in the submarine container. That will give a very high upward force. He is effectively firing a torpedo! That force is much higher than what step 1 can possibly provide.

3. Most people (even scientists) may mistakenly think that the energy supplied to compress the air is the total Input Energy. They are mistaken. Air is not a fuel but an Energy Carrier. The total Input Energy should be the sum of the Epump + Eair. Epump is the energy supplied. Ein is the Energy carried into the submarine container by air.

4. For a 100% efficient system Eout should be equal to Epump +Ein. Ein is FREE. It is the bring-in air energy. It is the energy freely from the environment mentioned in the last sentence of the brief description.

5. James Kwok can control the output power by adjusting the “torpedo jet valve”; the actual pressure of the compressed air; and the ratio of water and air in the rising submarine container. Salute to him and his team’s brilliant engineering.

6. In other words, Mr. James Kwok is using the energy from still air. Air is constantly flowing in and out of his Hidro device. That device cannot be a CLOSED system. Energy is carried by the forced flowing air. The device will run cold. This can easily be checked by measuring the temperature of the air around the top of the tower.

This is my analysis. Others are welcome to put forward their analysis. The World will learn better and faster with such scientific input.

More servers are coming. Amen.

Hi Lawrence

James is from Indonesia not China

[ltseung888]

Hi Lawrence

James is from Indonesia not China

Thanks for the information. He has a common Chinese Surname - Kwok. The World is One under God.

I shall be working with United Nations and Nationality does not really matter. I also have many cousins in both Indonesia and Australia.

His device is much more advanced than some of the floatation type devices that I was exposed to.

Thanks for bringing his technology to my attention.

[toranarod]

Hi Rod sadly the guy is not open sourcing and this nothing to do with me. I do know tho

1) You cannot replicate this from his info on the net
2) He is not going to open source

So it is a waste of time jumping up and down about this, i have a job to try and get it this out there. Its a real working device that's on the market now. And with the coming food crisis and others, i am not wasting any time .
Thats where the opportunity is, we are all needed to get the job done

Ash

there is nothing to jump up and down about. Not my problem I was trying to help.
If its on the market where can we go and buy one.
Lets us know how many actual sell? that will be very interesting.
yes. the food crisis out ways every thing else.
What can be done about that?

[ashtweth]

What can be done about that?

A non profit educational drive FOR CHEAPER CARBON NEUTRAL ELECTRICITY BETTER THAN SOLAR (MOIRE LOCAL JOBS are created to manufacture Hidro's parts AND NO PRECIOUS METALS sacrificed).

How many know that precious metals are used in Solar panels? Rod what can be done is we can click banners on the panacea site and NO PROFIT fund raise to get you and other open source MEN the device TO EDUCATE THE PUBLIC TO POLICE THE POLITICIANS as you will make the biggest noise.

Build consumer awareness and demand, make it self evident to the public that free energy is working. Screw solar and fracking. 200K is a small amount to change our lives, who has the money to do this non profit?

love ya man

Ash

[ltseung888]

What can be done about that?

Build consumer awareness and demand, make it self evident to the public that free energy is working. Screw solar and fracking. 200K is a small amount to change our lives, who has the money to do this non profit?

love ya man

Ash

Dear Ash,

Now that I am convinced that the James Kwok Hidro is theoretically possible, I am willing to talk to my contacts at United Nations for them to conduct a serious investigation. These contacts happen to be Chinese and have access to research funds. (China has the largest foreign currency reserve and is looking for ways to spend that.)

Will you be willing to act as an independent third party who has actually seen the device in action? Will you be willing to risk your reputation to support the Hidro? If so, I shall ask my contacts to approach you as well as Mr. James Kwok.

My judgment is based on my work on energy from still air and the paper by Dr. David Kagan et al. on the compressed air rocket.
Brown University

That paper by Dr. David Kagan focused on soda bottle rocket partially filled with water. The same theory applies to firing that rocket under water (like a torpedo). That can explain why a thick wire slapped easily.

Lawrence

[wayne.ct]

Contact with Hidro and their response

I read everything on their website and watched all their videos so I contacted them by email. I have a possible alternative energy project going. I would have liked them to make a presentation to my board of directors. The project would be 1 to 2 Megawatts, just like the artists concept on their website. Their first response: Read our website... Everything you need to know is on our website. Their second response (after I gave them more details..) We don't have anyone under contract that can service your location and the minimum size that we would consider is 10 Megawatts.

Therefore, my friends, don't expect anything from James Kwok but a stone wall.

As to my initial analysis, this whole thing is based on compressing air and supplying it to one of two containers that travel up and down in a tank of water. My questions are NOT answered by the formulas in their PDF. I think they are purposefully hiding the important details. Still, the whole thing can be proven with a little experimentation. And, it should not cost all that much.

Two containers able to hold air mounted on the two ends of a seesaw arrangement. Valves to release air when container is "shallow" Valves to add compressed air when container is "deep".

Energy required to operate is AC to your shop air compressor. You'll have to put some gears on the shaft of the seesaw to convert the reciprocating motion into linear or rotational motions so you can do some measurable work.

My project is still good. If you can do this and are near Atlanta, GA, send me a private message.

[wayne.ct]

More Info on Hidro

Since my last post I have done more reading on Hidro. Ashtweth started this thread but since he has actually seen the Hidro device he knows a lot of stuff he can't tell because he is under an NDA. Shame on you, Ash. You cannot contribute to open knowledge because you have been compromised. To gain personal knowledge you have signed an NDA. You can't talk because you fear you will be pursued by Hidro. Or perhaps, you hope for some personal gain. Whatever, you have taken a dive, in my opinion. You are on the side of the greedy corporations. Please feel free to defend yourself.

I won't sign any NDA, God willing. I will do my own research and I will do my own thinking. And, I will do my own experiments. This forum has other members that have also compomised their integrity, in my opinion. Still, if this is real, it will be easy enough to prove and demonstrate.

It appears the patents pending relate to the "high viscosity air transfer pump" which may solve certain "problems" but may in fact be non-essential to the operation of the device. If that seems obvious to me, perhaps someone else can confirm it.

If somone reading this can help, I would like answers to a few questions concerning the physics and engineering calculations.

1. Assuming a water tank that is say 40 feet tall, containing a two tanks of say 2 cubic feet capacity. Assume the tanks are fastened to some kind of conveyer chain. Say the upper extreme of travel is at the 38 ft mark and the lower extreme of travel is at the 3 ft mark. Say the tank is 1 ft tall and is at the lower extreme of travel. The tank is full of water and you want to replace the water with compressed air. What is the water pressure at that depth? How much compressed air is needed? How much time will it take to replace the water with air? What size valves and tubing would you need to replace the 2 cu. ft. in say 1 second? How bouyant would the tank be before and after? How much potential energy would be transferred to the tank by this action? How much force would the bouyant tank exert on the chain mechanism?

2. How would you size the air compressor system? How much energy would it consume to deliver the required volume of air? You need a few more input variables to do the calculations. Say the trip from the bottom to top or top to bottom takes 60 seconds. That would be 35 feet in 60 seconds or about 6 inches per second.

3. As long as I am the engineering professor handing out questions, let me tell you how I want you to turn in your answers. Please create a spreadsheet in Microsoft Excel format that allows the constants given above to be changed so verious combinations can be evaluated and compared. Kindly upload your spreadsheets to this thread.

I feel better getting this out in the open. Good luck, and happy calculating...

[toranarod]

sorry I cannot help with the engineering math but I could do the electronics and electrical system if you get that far.

your response from there emails is the same as all the other i have approached over the years they will not commit to anything. communication with Orbo was the same.

If you are going to manufacture and publish you have created something truly unique. Follow up with support. Why publish if you only intend to keep it a big dark secret.
I think they are to scared to sell one because they know it will get revers engineered. how do you manufacture some thing and sell it with out disclosing to the world how it works.
I say again. only open source will work and until some genius who is not a greedy pig as well as brilliant. nothing will ever change.

[citfta]

Hi Wayne,

I found one of the calculations you want. I don't use Excel so you will have to find someone else to do that part. I did find a calculator for finding the pressure at any depth you want. It shows total pressure which includes atmospheric pressure so you have to subtract 1 atm if you only want the pressure above atmospheric. The calculator says that at 40 feet the pressure would be about 32 psi - 14.7 for the atm pressure and you have about 17 psi. Here is the link for the calculator:

CalcTool: Pressure at depth calculator


This means you only need a little over 17 psi to force the water out of the container. And of course you need a lot more pressure if you want to force the water out in only 1 second. I am sure I have seen a formula some where for how much force or horsepower it takes to move a certain volume of air in a given time, but I have not found that yet. If I find it I will post that also.


I hope this helps a little, Carroll

[ltseung888]

The correct calculations to use?

Since my last post I have done more reading on Hidro. Ashtweth started this thread but since he has actually seen the Hidro device he knows a lot of stuff he can't tell because he is under an NDA. Shame on you, Ash. You cannot contribute to open knowledge because you have been compromised. To gain personal knowledge you have signed an NDA. You can't talk because you fear you will be pursued by Hidro. Or perhaps, you hope for some personal gain. Whatever, you have taken a dive, in my opinion. You are on the side of the greedy corporations. Please feel free to defend yourself.

I won't sign any NDA, God willing. I will do my own research and I will do my own thinking. And, I will do my own experiments. This forum has other members that have also compomised their integrity, in my opinion. Still, if this is real, it will be easy enough to prove and demonstrate.

It appears the patents pending relate to the "high viscosity air transfer pump" which may solve certain "problems" but may in fact be non-essential to the operation of the device. If that seems obvious to me, perhaps someone else can confirm it.

If somone reading this can help, I would like answers to a few questions concerning the physics and engineering calculations.

1. Assuming a water tank that is say 40 feet tall, containing a two tanks of say 2 cubic feet capacity. Assume the tanks are fastened to some kind of conveyer chain. Say the upper extreme of travel is at the 38 ft mark and the lower extreme of travel is at the 3 ft mark. Say the tank is 1 ft tall and is at the lower extreme of travel. The tank is full of water and you want to replace the water with compressed air. What is the water pressure at that depth? How much compressed air is needed? How much time will it take to replace the water with air? What size valves and tubing would you need to replace the 2 cu. ft. in say 1 second? How bouyant would the tank be before and after? How much potential energy would be transferred to the tank by this action? How much force would the bouyant tank exert on the chain mechanism?

2. How would you size the air compressor system? How much energy would it consume to deliver the required volume of air? You need a few more input variables to do the calculations. Say the trip from the bottom to top or top to bottom takes 60 seconds. That would be 35 feet in 60 seconds or about 6 inches per second.

3. As long as I am the engineering professor handing out questions, let me tell you how I want you to turn in your answers. Please create a spreadsheet in Microsoft Excel format that allows the constants given above to be changed so verious combinations can be evaluated and compared. Kindly upload your spreadsheets to this thread.

I feel better getting this out in the open. Good luck, and happy calculating...

Once Ash has signed the NDA, he must honor it. I have not signed any NDA and I have not seen the actual device, I can propose any theory I want. It needs a rocket scientist to understand the working of the James Kwok Hidro. This statement is literally correct.

Most people used the wrong assumption of analyzing the system from the Conservation of Energy assumption. That assumption assumes that the Hidro is a CLOSED system. Hidro is definitely not a closed system. It has Compressed Air coming in from the bottom and Air flowing out from the top. Energy can be carried by air coming in Eair_in. Energy can be carried by air going out Eair_out. Eair_in can be different from Eair_out.

In addition, the temperature of the submarine container at the bottom and at the top can be very different. (As shown later in the soda bottle rocket by Dr. Kagan et al). There is thermal energy flowing in and out from the system. We can call this Ethermal.

If these two terms are not accounted for, the calculation based on simple potential energy will be wrong and any conclusion will be meaningless.

Since I have not signed any NDA, I can disclose my understanding without any fear of any lawsuit. The real working principle of the Hidro is based on the torpedo firing upwards technology. In a torpedo, the compressed air can shoot the torpedo out at very high velocity. The Hidro does not need such high speeds. It is more like the soda bottle rocket fired under water.

The detailed physics and mathematics of the soda bottle rocket was described in the paper by Dr. Kagan et al. http://www.physics.brown.edu/physics...Zani/rokit.pdf

Please study that paper carefully. It is indeed a paper for rocket scientists.

Some highlights include:
1. The theory is much more complicated. The Theoretical Model included: Newton’s Second Law, the concept of momentum and relative velocity, fluid flow using Bernoulli’s Principle and the equation of continuity, and the adiabatic expansion of an ideal gas. In addition, the equations of motion of the rock, like real world problems, cannot be solved analytically and therefore require a numerical solution.

2. The prediction of the model seemed unbelievable. The rocket should reach 150 mph in less than the first two meters, in which it covers in one-tenth of a second! Accelerations would be in excess of 100g’s!

3. The experiments with a 2-liter soda bottle were within 10% of the theory!

4. The amount of water is more important than the air pressure.

5. The bottle was first half filled before inverting. Thus this trapped air required no pumping energy! (Indication of bring-in energy from air!)

6. There was condensation indicating that the expansion of the compressed air cooled the surrounding. (Indication of thermal energy flowing out from the system!) Global cooling can be achieved!

Once you understand that paper fully, you will find that you need to rephrase your question. The James Kwok Hidro is effectively a compressed air rocket! It is not a gravity device. Rocket action can snap a thick wire easily. Gravitational sinking in water will not do it.

*** I am 99.99% sure that my understanding is correct based on my work on energy from Still Air and the experience with toy water rockets. The Kagan Paper was a great help.

There is no magic or secret in the Hidro any more. Ash does not need to violate any NDA.

[citfta]

@ltseung888

I think I am following what you are saying. I was thinking the container or cylinder at the bottom was filled with air and allowed to float to the top. I will admit I have not read all of the thread only skimmed over most of it because Ash said we couldn't figure it out. If I am understanding what you are saying we are filling the cylinder and then letting the air escape as it propels the cylinder to the top. I know from my diving experience the air will keep expanding as the cylinder goes up because of the lowering pressure of the water. This should mean the cylinder will be propelled all the way to the top. Also if the air is forced into the cylinder quickly the cylinder and air will be heated adding to the pressure in the cylinder. Of course this will be offset by the air expanding as the cylinder goes upward. At the top of the travel the cylinder should be back to near the temperature of the water. At this point we don't need any more push anyway. In my simple terms have I gotten the basic idea of what we are talking about?

Carroll

[wayne.ct]

I found one of the calculations you want.

Thanks, Carroll. That will save me looking it up. I'm a bit surprised it would take such a small amount of pressure, but that is encouraging.

[ltseung888]

@ltseung888

I think I am following what you are saying. I was thinking the container or cylinder at the bottom was filled with air and allowed to float to the top. I will admit I have not read all of the thread only skimmed over most of it because Ash said we couldn't figure it out. If I am understanding what you are saying we are filling the cylinder and then letting the air escape as it propels the cylinder to the top. I know from my diving experience the air will keep expanding as the cylinder goes up because of the lowering pressure of the water. This should mean the cylinder will be propelled all the way to the top. Also if the air is forced into the cylinder quickly the cylinder and air will be heated adding to the pressure in the cylinder. Of course this will be offset by the air expanding as the cylinder goes upward. At the top of the travel the cylinder should be back to near the temperature of the water. At this point we don't need any more push anyway. In my simple terms have I gotten the basic idea of what we are talking about?

Carroll

You probably did not realize the importance of the control of the water jet valve. The size, the exact time of opening and closing will affect the Hidro system efficiency. (It is like the control of the torpedo or rocket engine.)

The speed of pumping in compress air will affect the temperature rise. The exact thermal energy exchange needs to be taken into account. When the submarine container rose to the top, the lowering of temperature due to expanding air may still be a factor to consider. At this stage, we cannot just ignore it.

So long as you understand that the Hidro is an OPEN system with air and thermal energy flowing in and out, you will not go wrong. Your analysis must take such terms into consideration. The exact assumptions may vary from researcher to researcher but you have the basic idea.

I salute Mr. James Kwok and team for their engineering brilliance. It is not a job for the home engineer or garage mechanic. Having a 15 meter water tower in the backyard is no joke. Controlling the rise and fall of the submarine containers and extracting the resulting energy are major engineering undertakings. Not to mention the firing of a torpedo upwards!