Capacitive Sink Hole

[Armagdn03]

@ Vrand

VERY VERY SIMILAR!

This method however does not require special connect and disconnect of 2 separate power sources, or plasma tubes. I really like the idea of being able to build with the simplest of materials.

I blew my scope about a month ago, and it has been a fantastic experience.

Hidink is a brilliant concept, that most skim over. Very glad you brought it up, I also was going to mention it, but thought I would do so a bit later on so as not to have an information overload, but thank you!

[vrand]

@ Vrand

VERY VERY SIMILAR!

This method however does not require special connect and disconnect of 2 separate power sources, or plasma tubes. I really like the idea of being able to build with the simplest of materials.

I blew my scope about a month ago, and it has been a fantastic experience.

Hidink is a brilliant concept, that most skim over. Very glad you brought it up, I also was going to mention it, but thought I would do so a bit later on so as not to have an information overload, but thank you!

Great news Armagdn03, looking forward to hearing more of your design and experiment

Yeah, Hiddink always had issues with the switching circuit, besides the blowing out the transistors in radios & TV sets in his neighborhood when he pulsed his tubes

His sons are now trying to help him develop his invention. He has access to a garage but needs to put up sheet metal on the walls to make a Faraday cage. In his late 80's(?) he is still going strong.

Be careful, as HV pulses will take out all electronics (sorry to hear about your scope) and wear a mechanical watch, as it would not be affected. Hiddink needed to test outside of the city in the country, and even there he managed to pull a lightning strike, in the clear blue sky (hit a nearby tree).

This is indeed a fascinating field to explore.

Thanks, Mike R.

[Harvey]

Inverse Square Law

This is how I understand this law to be applied:

"The value of field density at any given distance from a source will be the unity source value multiplied by the the inverse square of the distance'

In the example of two spheres where one is charged to 64V relative to a reference, and the sphere has a radius of r, the unity value is 64V where r = 1. Therefore, the surface of the sphere is 64 * 1/r² where r = 1. Thus, 1/1² = 1 and the surface is 64V everywhere.

Now when we double our distance to 2r we get 64 * 1/2² = 16v

At 3r we get 7.11-> V
At 4r we get 4V
etc.

Now, if we have two spheres that are the same radius, and they are 2r away from each other (center to center) then their surfaces would be touching and all charge would be equalized across both surfaces. Therefore, a differential cannot occur between two spheres of equal size until we exceed a distance of 2r.

Now also, I would like to draw attention to the italicized words above. The 64V must be measurable to some reference. Likewise, if we have two parallel plates, and they are both charged to some value where one is say X and the other is Y in volts, then we can say that a charge exists between those two plates of X - Y volts. But X is relative to a reference and Y is relative to the same reference. Can either plate be discharged to the reference independently of the other plate? Yes it can. Let us put some numbers in those variables and see what happens.

Let X = 100V and let Y = -350V and let our reference = 0V. We find that we have a positive charge on one plate, relative to our reference and a negative charge on the other. The differential between those two charges is 450V. So now we use a wire to connect the 100V plate to our reference; what happens? That plate discharges and now becomes zero volts. So next we remove the wire from that plate. We measure our differential between the two plates and now it is reduced to 350V. Next we attach the wire to the other plate, and that plate too discharges to zero volts to match our reference. The differential at this point between the two plates is zero. So we have effectively discharged the capacitor.

Here is a video of the opposite process - charging a capacitive surface:
Advance This Video To 47 Minutes

But it does help us to understand that something is being moved from place to place with respects to charge.

This video is a bit more sterile, but it does illustrate how charge and voltage are effected by distance and dielectric:
YouTube - MIT Physics Demo -- Adjustable Capacitor with Dielectric

And of course in this video, we see that the charge can in specific cases be stored in the dielectric rather than on the metal.
YouTube - MIT Physics Demo -- Dissectible Capacitor

Here is a video showing the charge staying on the metal rather than in the dielectric:
YouTube - Capacitor_voltage.avi

And here is a nice video that gives some specifics to different types:
YouTube - How a Capacitor Works - by Dr. Oliver Winn



A polarized material (dielectric or conductor) will repel electrons from one surface and attract them to the other.

Excess electrons packed into a region creates tension known as voltage. Conversely, Excess Ions packed into a region also creates tension known as voltage. And likewise, even a group of positrons packed into magnetic containment field can be viewed as having a voltage but trying to measure it could be problematic since positrons are considered to be a form of antimatter

So voltage really is nothing more than a bunch of charges trying to get some elbow room and charge is a group of anything that represents electrical charge within a particular area.

One thing is certain, we have a large variety of methods and means for storing charges

[cody]

Here is a video showing the charge staying on the metal rather than in the dielectric:
YouTube - Capacitor_voltage.avi

Is it really on the plate or is it due to the changing of dielectric material? Glass, having a dielectric constant of around 3.7 and then air having a dielectric constant of around 1. Im convinced that capacitance is an effect that occurs outside of conductors. Interesting videos

Interesting thread Armagdn03. I was a little confused on how the spark gap makes it unidirectional. So this would opperate off the inductive collapse of the primary right? And then the spark gap in the secondary would have to be adjusted to only arc on the main collapsing kick. Would this mean that the primary would have to be run on a dc spark gap setup to ensure the wave is always the same polarity? Or am i not thinking right?

[Harvey]

Hi you are getting into an area that I have been working on for some time, let me explain what I have developed.

Take an aluminium cylinder and place inside a rod electrode in its center, seal the two ends and creat a vacuum inside. Now take another cylinder of bigger diameter and place over the evacuated cylinder.

Now apply a HV+ to the rod in the vacuum (6kv) and connect the negative to the vacuum cylinder. Now apply another HV+ to the outer cylinder (30kv) and the negative to the vacuum cylinder creating a common negative.

Now what do we have, two different environments with two different potencials and a common ground point of separation. Now it will be interesting to see what you think will happen.

Mike

I'll take a guess from a classical view

The atoms of the center ground cylinder will become polarized between the 24kV potential normal to its surfaces. The outer cylinder will redistribute its charges to ensure the interior surface is near zero. Because the ground conductor has an ample supply of free electrons, there can be a flow of current from that conductor to the 6kV Rod as it acts as a cold cathode. Similarly, because of being polarized, the ground conductor will develop a slight positive charge on its outer layer and a flow of current could exist between this surface and the inner surface of the 30kV cylinder.

The outer cylinder will exhibit a strong electric field radiating outwards from its surface and will no doubt begin aligning air molecules resulting in polarized air around the cylinder. Charges can be transferred between that surface and the air resulting in an Ion wind flow away from the cylinder while fresh air is pulled in at the top and bottom of the cylinder ends to sweep across the surface and be repelled after the free electrons are removed.

Am I close to the empirical findings?

[Harvey]

Is it really on the plate or is it due to the changing of dielectric material? Glass, having a dielectric constant of around 3.7 and then air having a dielectric constant of around 1. Im convinced that capacitance is an effect that occurs outside of conductors. Interesting videos

Interesting thread Armagdn03. I was a little confused on how the spark gap makes it unidirectional. So this would opperate off the inductive collapse of the primary right? And then the spark gap in the secondary would have to be adjusted to only arc on the main collapsing kick. Would this mean that the primary would have to be run on a dc spark gap setup to ensure the wave is always the same polarity? Or am i not thinking right?

Actually the charge is held in the oxide layer of the metal in this case

[Michael John Nunnerley]

very good Harvey

I'll take a guess from a classical view

The atoms of the center ground cylinder will become polarized between the 24kV potential normal to its surfaces. The outer cylinder will redistribute its charges to ensure the interior surface is near zero. Because the ground conductor has an ample supply of free electrons, there can be a flow of current from that conductor to the 6kV Rod as it acts as a cold cathode. Similarly, because of being polarized, the ground conductor will develop a slight positive charge on its outer layer and a flow of current could exist between this surface and the inner surface of the 30kV cylinder.

The outer cylinder will exhibit a strong electric field radiating outwards from its surface and will no doubt begin aligning air molecules resulting in polarized air around the cylinder. Charges can be transferred between that surface and the air resulting in an Ion wind flow away from the cylinder while fresh air is pulled in at the top and bottom of the cylinder ends to sweep across the surface and be repelled after the free electrons are removed.

Am I close to the empirical findings?

Hi Harvey, you are nearly spot on. There are a few other things that can happen depending if we supply just positive HV to the inner and outer and connect the common to ground EARTH in a special way, we create a very strong electron sucking pump from the ground.

Without the earth ground we create a very broad electron beam which ionizes any gas that passes through the outer and negative of the reactor. I won't go into this more here as it is another project covered by NDA and is ongoing.

The part that is appropriate here is the earth ground and not system ground and creating an electron pump extracting free electrons and can self run after startup.

Mike

[Armagdn03]

Is it really on the plate or is it due to the changing of dielectric material? Glass, having a dielectric constant of around 3.7 and then air having a dielectric constant of around 1. Im convinced that capacitance is an effect that occurs outside of conductors. Interesting videos

Interesting thread Armagdn03. I was a little confused on how the spark gap makes it unidirectional. So this would opperate off the inductive collapse of the primary right? And then the spark gap in the secondary would have to be adjusted to only arc on the main collapsing kick. Would this mean that the primary would have to be run on a dc spark gap setup to ensure the wave is always the same polarity? Or am i not thinking right?

Director

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Director

Nice post, thank you.

Mike

[Armagdn03]

This is how I understand this law to be applied:

"The value of field density at any given distance from a source will be the unity source value multiplied by the the inverse square of the distance'

In the example of two spheres where one is charged to 64V relative to a reference, and the sphere has a radius of r, the unity value is 64V where r = 1. Therefore, the surface of the sphere is 64 * 1/r² where r = 1. Thus, 1/1² = 1 and the surface is 64V everywhere.

Now when we double our distance to 2r we get 64 * 1/2² = 16v

At 3r we get 7.11-> V
At 4r we get 4V
etc.

Now, if we have two spheres that are the same radius, and they are 2r away from each other (center to center) then their surfaces would be touching and all charge would be equalized across both surfaces. Therefore, a differential cannot occur between two spheres of equal size until we exceed a distance of 2r.

Now also, I would like to draw attention to the italicized words above. The 64V must be measurable to some reference. Likewise, if we have two parallel plates, and they are both charged to some value where one is say X and the other is Y in volts, then we can say that a charge exists between those two plates of X - Y volts. But X is relative to a reference and Y is relative to the same reference. Can either plate be discharged to the reference independently of the other plate? Yes it can. Let us put some numbers in those variables and see what happens.

Let X = 100V and let Y = -350V and let our reference = 0V. We find that we have a positive charge on one plate, relative to our reference and a negative charge on the other. The differential between those two charges is 450V. So now we use a wire to connect the 100V plate to our reference; what happens? That plate discharges and now becomes zero volts. So next we remove the wire from that plate. We measure our differential between the two plates and now it is reduced to 350V. Next we attach the wire to the other plate, and that plate too discharges to zero volts to match our reference. The differential at this point between the two plates is zero. So we have effectively discharged the capacitor.

Here is a video of the opposite process - charging a capacitive surface:
Advance This Video To 47 Minutes

But it does help us to understand that something is being moved from place to place with respects to charge.

This video is a bit more sterile, but it does illustrate how charge and voltage are effected by distance and dielectric:
YouTube - MIT Physics Demo -- Adjustable Capacitor with Dielectric

And of course in this video, we see that the charge can in specific cases be stored in the dielectric rather than on the metal.
YouTube - MIT Physics Demo -- Dissectible Capacitor

Here is a video showing the charge staying on the metal rather than in the dielectric:
YouTube - Capacitor_voltage.avi

And here is a nice video that gives some specifics to different types:
YouTube - How a Capacitor Works - by Dr. Oliver Winn



A polarized material (dielectric or conductor) will repel electrons from one surface and attract them to the other.

Excess electrons packed into a region creates tension known as voltage. Conversely, Excess Ions packed into a region also creates tension known as voltage. And likewise, even a group of positrons packed into magnetic containment field can be viewed as having a voltage but trying to measure it could be problematic since positrons are considered to be a form of antimatter

So voltage really is nothing more than a bunch of charges trying to get some elbow room and charge is a group of anything that represents electrical charge within a particular area.

One thing is certain, we have a large variety of methods and means for storing charges

@ Harvey
Very good points which I will address here soon...working on videotaping an experiment, will post soon (SO LITTLE TIME!!!) By the way, I particularly enjoy your posts!

@JMNunnerley

Thanks, one need not use gas tubes, or full wave rectification for this technique to work, I am building a half wave rectification spark gap for demonstration, will document this as well, but as stated above....SO LITTLE TIME!!! if someone has any to spare, send it my way!

[Michael John Nunnerley]

@ Harvey
Very good points which I will address here soon...working on videotaping an experiment, will post soon (SO LITTLE TIME!!!) By the way, I particularly enjoy your posts!

@JMNunnerley

Thanks, one need not use gas tubes, or full wave rectification for this technique to work, I am building a half wave rectification spark gap for demonstration, will document this as well, but as stated above....SO LITTLE TIME!!! if someone has any to spare, send it my way!

Know how you feel, I am semi retired and working harder than ever

Mike

[Inquorate]

hi guys, did some work on the unidirectional spark gap in the past.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...ansistors.html

Very interesting stuff Armagadon, thanks for sharing

[Armagdn03]

hi guys, did some work on the unidirectional spark gap in the past.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...ansistors.html

Very interesting stuff Armagadon, thanks for sharing

I do remember this! In fact I referenced that very thread when I was researching my new arc gap design!

Thanks for sharing the link, I should have included it

[cody]

That link was cool, thanks! I had always been under the impression that tesla used a magnetic field around the spark gap to keep the square wave very sharp, had no idea it was for rectification.

Here is a vid of a guy giving a good explination and demonstration of the dc resonant charging circuit for tesla coils. I would think a circuit like this would work for this application. He also gives pointers and tips on the component values from lots of experience.
YouTube - Larg Tesla Coil Video 2

[Armagdn03]

I do not know of tesla specifically using this design, however, he had "magnetically quenched" gaps, and it would have been hard to miss what was happening.

Also there is a difference between what that man showed in that video, and what I am trying to do. There will still be an AC resonant condition that alters polarity within the coil. What I propose is a "forward only" form of resonance. the resonance pushes in one direction, one polarity only, and does not allow a reversal of current. Therefore the gap itself must not allow the AC component, so that when the inductance collapses and begins to build the capacitive component, it is important that that capacitive component never reverse direction and return energy to the inductor which supplied it.