SSG Scope Shots

[Farmhand]

Hi all, I just got an oscilliscope cheap and have worked out how to kinda make it work, so since I am a novice and have a lot to learn I took some scope shots to ask if I could get some tips for using it to help me refine my knowledge of the SSG and radiant energy.

All comments welcome.

This is from my bike wheel ssg at about 57 Hz 20 v input and connected to a sulfated battery. MJL transistor. Not sure how many turns "lots" more than 800.


This is from my mini three coil with lots of resistance quad pulsing connected to the same sulfated motorcycle battery.
Three sets of quad pulses


One set spread out


I'm more concerned with the performance of the bike wheel SSG than the mini three coil I just thought the pulses looked interesting. I can get it down to two pulses per pass.

The battery is getting better steadily it was left drained for over six months and was reading 5.65 v very badly sulfated now holds at 12.1 v load drops the voltage quick but it bounces back to almost 12 volts when load is removed so it's still getting better I think.

If I could get some tips for how to understand what I am seeing on the scope I may be able to refine my SSG.
This is the controls of my scope. The vertical gain ATT was set to 1/10 and the vertical gain dial all the way to the left in the first shot I think.


Is it possible for me to get an accurate frequency and voltage reading with this scope? If so how do I do that?

Thanks all.

[sucahyo]

The battery is getting better steadily it was left drained for over six months and was reading 5.65 v very badly sulfated now holds at 12.1 v load drops the voltage quick but it bounces back to almost 12 volts when load is removed so it's still getting better I think.

That means you don't have any charge in the battery. You are turning your battery to 12V electret, produce voltage but no current. You still do not recover it yet. Is it an SLA?

But 12V is a good sign. Meaning that if you mix normal electricity, it can potentially have 12V real charge that only drop 1V or so with load. Use FWBR for recovery and raise your output current. Should read >350mA with the amp meter in series with charged battery.

Your scope shot look like what Bedini suggest.

[Farmhand]

Hi sucahyo, Thanks for your reply,

You still do not recover it yet. Is it an SLA?

It is a flooded lead acid 12v motorcycle battery CB14L-A2. I think I still have a long way to go with it yet. Input current is only about 260 Ma with the 18 magnet rotor at 200 rpm and 60Hz. I can raise the input current by using lee's pulse generator on the SSG at 120 Hz the input current goes up to about 420 Ma.
I have never tried to measure the output current I didn't think there was any, but I will do that next chance I get.

I just got some more magnet wire yesterday and I am planning to try your sting oscillator circuit, I am short on time and have a lot to do so it could be a little while yet before I can, but i'm very keen to try all the circuits I can.

I do have SLA's or gellcells that I popped the top off and flooded they are now conditioned and charge up well to 15.6 v under charge the give out a good charge too, if the load is kept under 200 Ma the seem to drain very little and last for ages much better than before but the standing voltage is only 12.6v. If I connect a 5 watt unregulated solar panel to a conditioned Gell cell it charges to 16.4 v pretty quick.

Here is a scope shot from the SSG with the pulse generator attached at 120 Hz.


The pulse generator i'm using is the one layed out in the OTG pulse generator paper it works a treat.

Thanks for your reply sucahyo I value your input very much.

Regards

[sucahyo]

Ok .

It seems mixing radiant with normal is the best way. Even Bedini patent is using FWBR.

Can you post comparison of output current with and without pulse generator? Since the scope shot seems more like SSG being driven by the pulse generator.

My current charger consume 1A at 10.5V to produce 0.38A at 8V. Maybe you need around 1.5A input with SSG.

I think measuring output current is very important procedure because only by measuring output current you can find out at what speed your SSG produce the best output.

[Farmhand]

Ok with the rotor, at 260 Ma input at 60 Hz I measure 100 Ma at the output, and with the pulse generator the input is 420 Ma at 120 Hz and I measure 200 Ma at the output. Thats with a cheap digital multimeter so maybe not accurate,( I have a couple of analogue ammeters on the way).

I must say that I did not build the pulse generator exactly to specs so it is may not be performing as well as Lee intended,( I couldn't get the correct type of 2 of the capacitors), but it works. I can increase or decrease the input current so I will do some experimenting.

However without knowing really what to look for, as in an improvement of the waveform it's a stab in the dark. Trial and error.

Cheers

[smw1998a]

SSG Waveform

Hello Farmhand,
camera0023.JPG
I have attached the image of one of your waveforms with added information. Firstly, when you sample across the collector emitter junction of the transistor you are sampling a DC waveform. The red line (supply voltage) is what it says and the induced sine wave of the passing rotor magnets is imposed on to this voltage while the transistor remains off. Don't be fooled by the polarity of this imposed sine because, in this case, it has been inverted on the scope. Suffice to say, in this waveform, that once the trace drops below the supply voltage, very shortly after TDC the transistor will begin to conduct. TDC (Top Dead Center) is the point where the rotor magnet is directly above the core of the coil. In induced voltage terms, it is called the zero volt crossover, where the induced voltage of a passing magnet reverses polarity as the magnet leaves TDC. The base of the transistor sees the drop below supply voltage as positive voltage in relation to ground in the trigger circuit and the transistor begins to conduct. The trace drops straight down to the zero volt line, around 0.6volts above would be more accurate and this event is the beginning of the coil charge cycle.

Current is taken from the SSG supply and converted into a magnetic field by the coil. During this time the current rises in the coil from zero amps in an exponential fashion, rather like the charging of a capacitor. As the magnetic field expands current through the coil increases, the maximum current would be voltage divided by the resistance of the winding or a little less but the trigger circuit will not allow this maximum current condition. The fact is, the trigger circuit is both a very effective zero volt crossing detector and a great peak current limiter. Your 260mA average input will actually peak at around 800mA during the coil charge and this would probably be around 30% of the maximum current condition. At this point the transistor switches off.

The scope trace now goes vertical! As the flow of current through the coil was abruptly cut off, the magnetic field around the coil collapses. The resulting collapse generates a potential difference across the windings which continues to rise beyond the combined voltages of the source and charge battery. A couple of volts above the charge battery voltage a closed loop path back to the top of the coil presents itself, through the blocking diode and charge battery. The collapsing field now generates current and the potential difference across the coil continues to fall until it reaches the value of the charge battery and then the path to the top of the coil is closed, the remaining energy is transformed and dissipated through the base resistance of the trigger winding, a path of much greater resistance than a charge battery.

The magnetic field is spent, the coil discharge cycle is over and the trace finds itself sitting at the source voltage awaiting the approach of the next rotor magnet. The hump of the induced voltage as the magnet approaches the core of the coil take us full circle and the whole SSG cycle begins again.

Regards Lee..

[smw1998a]

I must say that I did not build the pulse generator exactly to specs so it is may not be performing as well as Lee intended,( I couldn't get the correct type of 2 of the capacitors), but it works. I can increase or decrease the input current so I will do some experimenting.

Cheers

Hi Farmhand,
If you can increase and decrease your coil charge duration by decreasing and increasing base resistance, the pulse generator is triggering the SSG and not driving it, therefor functioning as intended.

Try setting the pulse generator to match the frequency of your rotor, then reduce base resistance to increase current output to battery. The rest time between pulses is important try to space your coil charge time to one third on two thirds off (33%) minimum. 25% is better. The current output is always a proportion of the current input but there are limits to efficiently charging a coil, usually charging to one third of it's saturated value is the most efficient.

Regards Lee...

[Farmhand]

Thanks a heap Lee for taking the time to make such a great explanation for me, I had to re read a few parts but now I see it, when I looked at the attachment it became pretty clear.

So I gather that the coil discharge time would stay fairly constant depending on the construction of the machine, but the coil charge can be influenced by the tuning of the machine.

Going by your explanation I can see that my charge time is slightly longer than my discharge time.

Also would I be correct to say that the battery is being hit with 40 volt spikes, 20 volts from 0 to supply then 20 to the top of the spike ?

By the way I can see a big input power saving from the rotor at 260 Ma 60 Hz and with the pulse generator at 420 Ma 120 Hz, thats double the frequency but a lot less than double the input current.

I'm going to have to read your post a few more time to make sure I got it right and it sinks in.

Cheers

[Farmhand]

Yes The charge time does change as I change base resistance, I will do what you suggest and set the pulse generator same as sweet spot frequency then adjust resistance to get 25 to 33 % charge time.

What you say makes sense to me that the rest time is important.

Thanks again

[Farmhand]

Ahah done that now the battery is charging at 13.7 volts at 60 Hz with 320 Ma input rather than with the rotor it was 13.2 volts at 60 Hz with 260 Ma input. Nice !

I'll see how that goes. Seems like it will charge very well like that.

This is what I have now

[sucahyo]

I love the explanation Lee .

Congratulation Farmhand . If you still detect large voltage drop with load, consider full wave bridge rectifier.

[Farmhand]

Hi sucahyo

This part of lee's post is particularly usefull-

As the magnetic field expands current through the coil increases, the maximum current would be voltage divided by the resistance of the winding or a little less but the trigger circuit will not allow this maximum current condition. The fact is, the trigger circuit is both a very effective zero volt crossing detector and a great peak current limiter. Your 260mA average input will actually peak at around 800mA during the coil charge and this would probably be around 30% of the maximum current condition. At this point the transistor switches off.

My coil is 3.1 ohms power winding and 8 ohms trigger winding.

I can measure a maximum of 200 Ma at the output with the pot at least resistance. With Input 420 Ma.

Battery is climbing towards 14v now on a charge so I will continue to charge with a bit more current.

I think I will need more coils or more windings for bigger batteries. I haven't tried charging/ conditioning a large battery yet, I have two large boat batteries on the way so time will tell .

Thank you

[sucahyo]

I can measure a maximum of 200 Ma at the output with the pot at least resistance. With Input 420 Ma.

Yes. If you measure that with amp meter in series with the battery you currently charge, you have a very very good efficiency .

[smw1998a]

Hi Farmhand,

So I gather that the coil discharge time would stay fairly constant depending on the construction of the machine, but the coil charge can be influenced by the tuning of the machine. Going by your explanation I can see that my charge time is slightly longer than my discharge time.

The coil discharge is always a lesser proportion of the energy stored during the coil charge. Therefore, the duration of the coil charge directly affects the duration of the coil discharge. To a lesser degree, the voltage of the charge battery also affects the coil discharge duration, getting slightly shorter (in time) as charge battery voltage increases but from 12v to 15v it is not that noticeable.

The coil charge is dictated by coil construction, input voltage, base resistance and transistor beta. Base resistance controls how much current flows through the base emitter junction of the transistor, the more current through the base, the more current is allowed to rise through the power winding through the collector emitter junction of the transistor. The current for the base is supplied by induction during the coil charge, at some point the current through the base will not be able to match the current rising in the coil and base current will fail to drive the transistor, the transistor will switch from it's saturated region to active linear region. This will cause the coil to collapse applying 0.6v negative to the base through the trigger circuit ensuring the transistor is clamped in the off state.

Also would I be correct to say that the battery is being hit with 40 volt spikes, 20 volts from 0 to supply then 20 to the top of the spike ?

No, this is not correct. Your charge battery is grounded to the positive of your supply, as the transistor switches off the trace rises from just above zero volts to supply voltage, this just says the transistor is now off. The voltage generated by the collapse starts at supply voltage, the trace continue to rise vertically until it exceeds charge battery voltage by a mere few volts, then current flows through the charge battery back to the top of the coil. In other words, once the potential of the collapsing field exceeds the potential of the charge battery, current will flow through the charge battery and will continue to do so until no potential difference exists between the voltage of the collapsing field and the voltage of the charge battery. There is a spike that exists at the top of the waveform and in some cases an oscillatory spike but this is of minute duration, the bulk of the charging is done by the current that flows through the battery at barley 1 volt above charge battery voltage. Place your scope probes across your charge battery and reduce your attenuation to see how many volts above battery voltage your charge battery sees.

By the way I can see a big input power saving from the rotor at 260 Ma 60 Hz and with the pulse generator at 420 Ma 120 Hz, thats double the frequency but a lot less than double the input current.

The rotor also has a direct effect on the coil charge duration, it increases it, with little or no gain in the coil discharge. The stronger the rotor magnets the greater the increase in coil charge duration. This is how the pulse generator circuit will increase the charging performance of any rotor based SSG. What many see as free mechanical can easily be proven otherwise with the application of this circuit.

Keep up the good work.

All the best Lee..

[Farmhand]

Hi Lee, I see with the scope across the charge battery a straight horizontal line just above or about the battery voltage with like a backslash on the left end, it goes up to about the supply voltage which is now 22 volts.

I'm getting a much better idea whats going on now. I'll read your last post a few more time's and things will sink in. Being able to see whats happening and understanding it better will be good.

Cheers
Andrew