Frictionless OU?

[Matos de Matos]

Hi everybody:

Despite of not having much participation on my proposals, here, I am not a quitter, so, here it is another one.

It is a representation, where I have a sphere, but can be any magnetic weight that will levitate on an inductrack type rail, starting on position “1”.
At “2” one fixed rod hooks the weight and makes it reduce the radius.
At “4” unhooks the weight and slides linearly on the levitating track to “load”.
Isn’t this setup an OU?

Thank you
David

[gyula]

Hi David,

Why do you expect for the sphere to go up from its position #2 to its position #4? Because its kinetic energy in position #2 will be enough to lift itself up to its original height?
There will be a "pulling" force in the rod pointing away always radially from the axis, consuming part of the kinetic energy gained.

Also, where do you get energy to insure the "hooks" and the "unhooks" for the weight at the rod end?

rgds, Gyula

[Matos de Matos]

Hi David,

Why do you expect for the sphere to go up from its position #2 to its position #4? Because its kinetic energy in position #2 will be enough to lift itself up to its original height?
There will be a "pulling" force in the rod pointing away always radially from the axis, consuming part of the kinetic energy gained.

Also, where do you get energy to insure the "hooks" and the "unhooks" for the weight at the rod end?

rgds, Gyula

Hi Gyula:

It is like swinging a rope with a ball on the end with your right hand, and with your left stop the rotation grabbing the rope half of its length.
The ball hits your right hand hard, with a higher velocity than the swing.
It is the mechanics of the parametric pumping.

The hooks do not need much energy to operate. When the ball hits the hook, a simple spring mechanism can lock it and on the top a stick on the frame can mechanically unlock it.

I am working on a drawing with all the mechanisms.
Thank you
David

[gyula]

Ok David, carry on. You told a good example, I experienced similar speed increase on swinging weights when shortening their turning radius.

Is the magnetic leviation a requirement?

Gyula

[Matos de Matos]

Ok David, carry on. You told a good example, I experienced similar speed increase on swinging weights when shortening their turning radius.

Is the magnetic leviation a requirement?

Gyula

Hi Gyula:
Approximately double the velocity if you shortened the radius in half.
I am very bad in Math, but I think that we increase angular velocity due to decrease of the radius.
Angular velocity sqaured = F/m.r
F, is the centripetal force on the ball, that is conserved.
I think that a very low friction wheel may work.
I am drawing a Pendulum with an articulated arm with a wheel at the tip of the bob.
Lets see how it comes.
Thank you
David

File:Centrifugal.PNG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Harvey]

How about letting the ball drop straight down vertically and impact the load at the bottom with a 45° angle so it bounces horizontal and immediately gets hooked by a flexible arm. The arm wraps around a given shaft radius thus converting length to angular velocity and slings the ball up a small incline of magnetic attractors the last of which is across the gap and the ball can never reach it before being overcome by gravity and the cycle continues.



Of course the amount of energy extracted from the load cannot exceed the gain in the system and the gain is caused by playing two conservative forces against each other and converting their individual potential energy into other forms that can be extracted midway in the cycle.

[Matos de Matos]

How about letting the ball drop straight down vertically and impact the load at the bottom with a 45° angle so it bounces horizontal and immediately gets hooked by a flexible arm. The arm wraps around a given shaft radius thus converting length to angular velocity and slings the ball up a small incline of magnetic attractors the last of which is across the gap and the ball can never reach it before being overcome by gravity and the cycle continues.



Of course the amount of energy extracted from the load cannot exceed the gain in the system and the gain is caused by playing two conservative forces against each other and converting their individual potential energy into other forms that can be extracted midway in the cycle.

Hi Harvey:
It does give excess energy, and seems without violating any physics law
I am still thinking about this strange increase of energy, and did not make up my mind yet.
One way to explain it is that the reaction centrifugal force acts on the pole (fixing point) over distance, while the centripetal force acts on the ball.
Reducing the distance from the ball to the pole, the same force acts on a smaller distance, increases its power, increasing the angular velocity.
This setup may prove the existence of the Aether.
I am not sure but I will think on that possibility, because I feel the existence of the Aether.
Soon I will post a drawing with a simple setup that everybody can try it out.
Thank you
David

[Harvey]

Zoom

Seems like we will have to spend some energy to attach the mover to the swing arm

But, the vertical drop does add more energy to the mover than the curved drop.

[Matos de Matos]

Zoom

Seems like we will have to spend some energy to attach the mover to the swing arm

But, the vertical drop does add more energy to the mover than the curved drop.

Hi Harvey:

Great setup. You have imagination. It seems that you get in the devices. Sometimes I found myself inside the mechanisms I am thinking about, moving with them, totally out of the world.
I am not sure if a gradual change in radius has the same effect. I will think about it.
I do not think that attracting the ball to the swing will consume much energy, and the mechanism does have a considerable energy available after completion of the cycle.
Did you check my math, where I show the cycle, with a velocity on top of almost one third of the velocity at bottom?
It is considerable, and I think that enough to overcome friction and hit the load, make a sound, and restart the cycle.
I am almost finishing with the new setup, where I avoid the hook.
Thank you
David

[Matos de Matos]

Double pendulum OU

Hi everybody
The Double pendulum hammer has the same concept, but this one is simpler.
I believe that the drawings are explanatory, and your comments are important to improve it
Thank you
David

[Harvey]

Hi David,

Just a quick glance at your math - it looks like we may have mixed two different types of velocity there:

See Angular velocity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for more information.



Angular velocity generally tells us how much turning something does in how much time.

Linear velocity tells us how much distance we can cover in how much time.

So when we see 14 m/s we know that's linear and essentially represents how fast the Bob is moving around the circumference.

But when we see the lower case greek omega symbol 'ω' - then we know we are dealing with angular velocity and we need to sharpen our radians to degrees conversion pencil because these formulas are typically in radians.

I hope that helps.

[elias]

Thanks for your post David,
Nevertheless made me thinking. This is a simple experiment I used to do years before, stand on a free rotating unit. expand your arms, and start rotating. If you bring your arms near to your body, your speed of rotation will increase(omega), but this does not mean that the speed of you arms have increased.

If you want to change the radius of a rotating ball, you can construct a golden mean spiral labyrinth, and throw your ball in it, it will not speed up as it is rotating inside the spiral, but as the radius decreases, less and less time is needed for the ball to make a full rotation. Thus the angular velocity would increase, but not the real velocity of the ball.

Sorry, but I don't think that this thing can work ...
Elias

[Matos de Matos]

Hi David,

Just a quick glance at your math - it looks like we may have mixed two different types of velocity there:

See Angular velocity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for more information.



Angular velocity generally tells us how much turning something does in how much time.

Linear velocity tells us how much distance we can cover in how much time.

So when we see 14 m/s we know that's linear and essentially represents how fast the Bob is moving around the circumference.

But when we see the lower case greek omega symbol 'ω' - then we know we are dealing with angular velocity and we need to sharpen our radians to degrees conversion pencil because these formulas are typically in radians.

I hope that helps.

Hi Harvey:
Yes, I am very bad in math, so I simplified and made a direct proportion between angular velocity and linear velocity.
I thought that was just different units of measuring distance over time, and the result wouldn’t be correct but the intention was to show that the ball will have a positive velocity at top.
I guess I have to make a prototype and find by myself, or can you make a simple math model to show that the ball will have zero velocity at top.
I will be grateful for that.
Thank you
David

[Matos de Matos]

Thanks for your post David,
Nevertheless made me thinking. This is a simple experiment I used to do years before, stand on a free rotating unit. expand your arms, and start rotating. If you bring your arms near to your body, your speed of rotation will increase(omega), but this does not mean that the speed of you arms have increased.

If you want to change the radius of a rotating ball, you can construct a golden mean spiral labyrinth, and throw your ball in it, it will not speed up as it is rotating inside the spiral, but as the radius decreases, less and less time is needed for the ball to make a full rotation. Thus the angular velocity would increase, but not the real velocity of the ball.

Sorry, but I don't think that this thing can work ...
Elias

Hi Elias:
Thank you for your opinion.
I really appreciate your disposition to spend your time thinking about my proposal and the time to explain your view.
I thought that angular velocity and real velocity where proportional, but I guess not.
Thank you
David

[Matos de Matos]

If you want to change the radius of a rotating ball, you can construct a golden mean spiral labyrinth, and throw your ball in it, it will not speed up as it is rotating inside the spiral, but as the radius decreases, less and less time is needed for the ball to make a full rotation. Thus the angular velocity would increase, but not the real velocity of the ball.

Sorry, but I don't think that this thing can work ...
Elias

Hi Elias:

This is how I see it:
On the case above, the perimeter of a quarter of a cycle with 10 m radius is the same as the perimeter of half circle with 5 m radius.
If it takes less time for the ball to travel the perimeter of the smaller radius, the velocity has to be greater.

I am not sure, but I think that the spiral example does not change the fulcrum. and the perimeter of the smaller radius circle decreases, too.
David