Milkovic Pendulum motorized Hybrid

[kcarring]

I have been working on drawing up a cad version of the milkovic generator i have in my mind, and then i want to build such a thing. Has anyone built one here? One question have is this:

Does the "business end", thae hammer, do a sort of "hop" I really would like to see the exact behaviour. If it jumps up, and then slightly down, and then up again in one cycle... that is a wholly different thing than just up/downup/down.

In fact, i dont see that as a real advantage, especially when talking about current production, but.. if true... perhaps a spring can "tame that effect"...

Ideally, you'd want a powerstroke in each direction.

Any ideas on what factors would help this device "speed" up, too... i see a very low frequency, long waveform period current being generated here.

[Matos de Matos]

. i try to understand how the 2 stage (or more stage) oscillator really works.
laurent

Laurent

Did you try four spring legs to separate the device from the table?
That may help see where that vibration comes from, and best way to harness that resonance to electricity.
David

[Gdez]

Tsmo

@kcarring,
I use springs on my tsmo's, and feel also that you need to be able to use the up and downstroke to be effective.here is a vid of one I threw together last summer. Didn't work to well but I could definitley improve it. I was just working with junk I had laying around

YouTube - gdez1000's Channel

Adjusting everything to work together takes a bit of time. also this model needs heavier flywheels

[Matthew Jones]

Hi Conrad
yes i see better what you mean, and i agree it can be a good way to produce electricity.
But what puzzle me is the tremendous vibration of my
working table with drawers and scope and all stuff with only a small 0,24 watt.
When the resonance is in action, it is so strong that i can not stop it with all my force trying to block the table. I myself get in resonance
And the more weight i add at the end of the lever (if the counter spring is correctlyadapted ) the more mass get in action for the same really small input power.
So perhaps if we can stabilise the base (my table and all the rest) we can concentrate all the resonating power on your idea of a lever (could be very long ) to actuate a generator coil with good efficiency
I think every body has to build such simple device to be able to feel the power in the hand to understand what i mean.
Very interesting.
I do not say something incredible here, this is all normal but the way to get this resonant power with so small input is amazing.
I can better understand now,how a bridge in america could be destroyd by a simple wind effect resonance.

Good night at all

laurent

Woopy.
I have always imagined a machined that is only a small motor, similar to yours with an out of balance flywheel. This motor and fly wheel are fixed to a workbench or something by a frame that does not allow vertical movement from the out of balance rotation BUT does allow for horizintal movement.

This flywheel would spin and shake, side to side at maybe .5 to .25 inch or 1 or 2 cm.
The from the sides you would have micro generators soaking up the vibration to create power.

You cannot stop an out of balance flywheel. It deliver 1000's of time more energy if contained to certain axis of vibration.

The possibilities are endless with out balance at high speed. The bouncer being an example.


Matt

[woopy]

Yes Matt
your are right

the possibilities are endless

and 2 more cents in that directioin

YouTube - onepulse bouncer test 2.wmv

good luck at all

laurent

[conradelektro]

Yes Matt

the possibilities are endless

and 2 more cents in that directioin

YouTube - onepulse bouncer test 2.wmv

laurent

@woopy: Yes, the magnet dipping into the coil, and you get a little electricity. Making the lever much longer will give you a longer travelling path (and therefore a faster movement) of the magnet dipping into the coil. Faster movement of the magnet --> higher amplitude of the sine wave coming out of the coil.

And may be, if one places the four legs of a little table (where the whole mechanism is standing on) onto four piezo stacks (with springs in between), one could collect even more electricity (instead of rocking your lab). The piezos will probably not give a sine wave, but feeding the erratic signals into capacitor via a diode bridge could help to collect electricity.

Great ideas, great set up. I will go into it when I get tired of my current project.

When I built a pulse motor I got rid of the hall sensor and used optical gap sensors instead allowing for a much more exact switching of the coils (and therefore less power consumption). See the attached circuit (use one coil instead of the two toroids) and the photo. The photo shows the two optical gap sensors. One sensor switches ON and the other OFF for very precise timing.

Greetings, Conrad

[woopy]

hi Conrad

thanks for input

yes the piezoelectricity seems interesting for this setup, because it does not need any movement, simply pressure. So no inertial losses (seemly ?)

Today, i modified my 5 stack of piezo from parallel to serial and i got a very large voltage and much more stable sine wave. (about 60 volts easyly)
but as soon as i tried to connect 1 LED the voltage fell down and the led is not so bright and anyway far not so bright as per the magnet in coil as per my previous video.

So any comments or proposals as how to use better the piezo is welcome

Is it possible to get a very high power from stacking (let's say 100 or more ) of those piezoplates ? Or are they too poor in efficiency ?

good luck at all

laurent

[gyula]

Hi Laurent,

The probable reason for the fall of the output voltage from the piezos is they have a very high - capacitive output impedance and it would be reasonable to use a matching transformer to step it down. What frequency is involved? I guess it is also changing as the pressure changes? Creating a resonance with the primary coil of a transformer could help but if the frequency is changing then it cannot help as much as in case of a fixed frequency.

Gyula

[conradelektro]

Should the pendulum be rigidly fixed to the ground?

There are electrical considerations. How to connect the piezos, which type, how many? And in case of a magnet swinging into or near a coil. What magnet, what coil? But I want to put this problems to the background for the moment.

Let's think about the pendulum and its relationship with the ground. Should the pendulum shake its support or should it be fixed to the ground as rigidly as possible?

I tend to the opinion that the support of the pendulum (its axis and the point where the spring holds against the ground) should be as immovable as can be achieved. Ideally, only the pendulum moves and not its support!

Once this very rigid setup is achieved (bolt the support of the pendulum to a concrete floor) the forces produced in the pendulum are all imparted on or transfered to certain points:

Case 1 (see the attached drawing): all forces act on the point where the spring is connected to the ground, or if you want to a piezoelectric stack (there will be pushing and pulling). The spring must have a certain rigidity depending on the rotational speed of the attrapulsion drive.

Case 2 (see the other drawing): all forces will act on the steel strip (carrying the magnet), if the length of the steel strip and the weight of the magnet are just right (with a certain rotational speed of the attrapulsion drive). If the length of the steel strip, the weight of the magnet and the rotational speed of the attrapulsion drive do not match, there will also be part of the force imparted on the point where the spring is connected to the support. Ideally, the spring should not be necessary.

Greetings, Conrad

[conradelektro]

Vertical bouncer (vibrator)

May be the whole thing should be suspended vertically. See the attached drawing.

There are advantages in a vertical arrangement:

- the initial and natural position is the steel strip with drive and magnet hanging exactly above the coil (no energy expenditure to hold this position)

- no spring besides the flexibility of the steel strip (the steel strip is rigidly fused to the ceiling, in practice e.g. with a vice)

- only one axis, namely the axis of the attrapulsion drive

- the main determining factors are the weight of the unbalance, the weight of the magnet above the coil, the flexibility of the steel strip and the length of the steel strip

The attrapulsion drive could be a DC-motor with an unbalanced wheel attached to its axis (which would be the only axis in the system). The DC-motor could be rather weak because it only has to overcome the position when the weight (giving the unbalance) is at the top.

May be this should be in an other or new thread. But I will not build it for some time because I am working on an other project right now.

Greetings, Conrad

[Matthew Jones]

You are kinda missing the point. Maybe peizo plates in place the the entire apparatus should be fixed. But there is so much more to the movement that can't be judged.
You cannot stop it. The loads IMHO can be 100 of larger in output that the actual driver.

The key is feeling it.

A 1 lb pendulum will throw a grown man around. Pick him up and drop him like no tomorrow. A 17 lbs pendulum will bend steel post made of 1/4 steel.

You cannot imagine the power until you experience it.

In my opinion the peizo electric stack is most likely a waist of time. Just turn a generator and make some real measurable power.

Matt

[conradelektro]

In my opinion the peizo electric stack is most likely a waist of time. Just turn a generator and make some real measurable power. Matt

@Matt: the piezo electric stack (or the magnet swinging in front of a coil) came into play because no body figured out so far how to just turn a generator with this type of pendulum.

In case you know some good way of transforming the unimaginable power of the pendulum into rotation, please tell us.

Yes, there seem to be strong forces at work, but how to use them (besides bending steel or rocking a table)?

Greetings, Conrad

[Matthew Jones]

Oh I have had that for some time. After all the bouncer is Mine...
this is the concept video.
YouTube - Bouncer Animation Render

We have a running version. The problem is we started to small with the output drive shaft. We had to add few things as wells to keep the timing all in sink and make the springs adjustable in strength. And then of course with bigger material comes more money...so its been a game in patience.

We'll be showing it as soon I get the time to build the newest drive shaft.

Matt

[Matos de Matos]

We had to add few things as wells to keep the timing all in sink and make the springs adjustable in strength. And then of course with bigger material comes more money...so its been a game in patience.

We'll be showing it as soon I get the time to build the newest drive shaft.

Matt

Matt, great job, my 2 cents.

Questions:
Why do you have springs?
The bouncer does not go up and down naturally without the springs?

IMHO a direct crankshaft may do the job without the losses in the springs.

David

[Matthew Jones]

The springs spread the power from the 2 pules out over 360 deg. So you can store some energy and use it. If you just freewheel it you only get 2 sharp pulses of power, each time the pendulum hit bottom.
Each time it hits you have robbed it of its inertia, so the recover on the way back up might give you a little bump but not enough to make a difference.

We thought the same way at first but realized the springs are the answer to fluid motion over 360 deg.
Eventually I would like to use magnets instead of springs but for the time being I need to know the amount power coming out before get into smashing magnets.

Its like I have said before when you look at thing alot doesn't make sense but when you build one you start to see why you need the extra parts.

Cheers
Matt