Milkovic Pendulum motorized Hybrid

[shylo]

Not to scale

At last, What is the distance , from the lower left of the pie, to the lower pivot point?
The size of the pie ,is ~ 1/6, that of the circumference of rotation?
I think a different kind of crankshaft.
If you spun 2 in opposite directions......
I get lost in all the ideas'.
artv

[shylo]

Not to scale

At last, What is the distance , from the lower left of the pie, to the lower pivot point?
The size of the pie ,is ~ 1/6, that of the circumference of rotation?
I think a different kind of crankshaft.
If you spun 2 in opposite directions......
I get lost in all the ideas'.
artv

[Matthew Jones]

Hi Matt

seems that Paul (soundiceuk )could get it ( the drawing ) and post it here thank's.

But if this drawing is the correct one , i can of course calculate the proportion with the triangle math.

But my question is how you do the calculation to get the power stroke out of it, so to get the fantastic results you are claiming ? I mean input versus output power with your simulatioin ?

Please some details would be welcome

Laurent

Well when I got the measurements off if it it was from and actual working model. Its big. The simulations showed close but the working model was better.

Now if you want me to moch up another simulation, we gotta start talking about cash payment for my time. The Reactor model for instance took alot code to write a custom object in Max script that gave me all the measurements.

So now if your just talking building one....then...The bottom is 3 ft (.9 meters) on mine from the point to point on the triangle, not counting the square parts that protrude from the triangle. The pendulums weight was 18 lbs (8.2+- kilos). So from that you should be able to scale any models.

Now if you wanna measure the power you can put a down rod to left most point called "Highest Torque" and put a scale under it that read quikly and logs or locks onto the highest reading and at that point you can get the highest torque reading available. To right of that you will have more stroke so the reading will space itself out especially if you have springs in the system.

Either way the machine can drive a camshaft, with the right bearing assembly at 200 rpms or whatever your motor is capable of... You don't want to go too fast.

So now you know the down stroke, and the machine may put out power only 120 degrees (2 pendulums) from the 360 the pendulum travels. So you are powering 1/3 the time.
Say you had 90 pound of pressure for the duration of the 120 degrees. That would imply torque as being 30 lbs. Now you do Horsepower math at 200 rpms.

Thats 3.4 horsepower. At 746 watts per horse thats about 2500. If you motor runs 100 watt (V * A) you are outputing 25x more power.

And thats easy folks.

Follow me, or do you have a difference of opinion. I may not be right but it sounds OK to me when It was explained...

Matt

I made a mistake in the example. Hprsepower calculation on 30 at 200 rpms gives you 1.14 horsepower. 850 watts. So grand total of 8x. It was just an example, I used 90 ft lbs in the calculator.

[Matthew Jones]

I forgot one thing. To get the torque that would show up on the scale is not straight forward as to just reading the scale. It has to be calculated. So you look at the wight based on the total but you average it over 4 points.
So the Highest hit was 1200lbs. But the stroke must have started at 0. So over 4 points your looking at an averaging of 5 number.

1200, 0 , 300, 600, 900. which is 600 total average. That is total pressure for horsepower calculation.

Right?

Matt

[soundiceuk]

I used Reactor, Havok, Bullet and someone else used another one that was opensource 2d I think it was called Phun.

The Havok is from a game engine I had a license for. Reactor come with 3dsMax and Bullet is and Opensource engine. We have an in house Java game engine we developed at one time that uses it.

I used to love making small video games and 3d art.

Matt

Hi Matt, I just wondered, is it possible to simulate the behaviour of a one way bearing?

I cannot figure it out on phun. I think it needs someone to program a custom code.


Different device, https://www.dropbox.com/s/1n7z4tx4ir...20Demo%201.m4v


I didn't film it, but I noticed if I picked the device up and down on the end of the wooden frame, it went around on its own if I got the timing right.

I wonder if triangle pendulums would work better on it.

What have you discovered regarding the pendulum shape and weight distribution?

Thanks,

Paul

[soundiceuk]

I've just had a bit of a vision whilst reading your last two posts Matt.

I thought about combining this design which features branded sprag clutch one way bearings with a claimed zero backlash clamped inside the arms.



For the active flywheel, I plan to use a pulse motor and some speed and dwell trims to tune the maximum velocity of the arms kicking out.

Instead of round weights, use triangular ones like you have discovered to make them swing out as much as possible to catch maximum torque when they try to twist back.

It's like having four torque wrenches being pulled on and off.

This would drive a heavy flywheel coupled to an alternator, battery or ultra capacitor and a pure sine wave converter ready to be plugged into.

The motor could even plug in there to prove a self runner!

I was thinking of using an 18V Snap-on Impact gun motor.

Is this the type of output system that you would consider for this, or are you looking to go for mains voltage generators?

Thanks,

Paul

[Matthew Jones]

I don't know what I am going to do with it. I try not to think that far ahead until I have working model.Dreaming to far ahead just set's you back on the problems of now.

Plus I can't afford to build the thing with any scale now, so there is no light at the end of my tunnel.

Matt

[soundiceuk]

Hi Matt, have you costed the build roughly?

I've been thinking about output methods for this kind of thing for about 3 years.

The is a great team of smart guys around us including yourself to lean on.

Have you got the workshop facilities locally and the storage space?

Where are you based?


It doesn't have to be that elaborate, it only has to be a self runner to get some public funding and people power advertising.

How heavy is the pendulum on the current prototype. What is the wattage consumption?

Best regards,

Paul

[soundiceuk]

Plus I can't afford to build the thing with any scale now, so there is no light at the end of my tunnel.

I've got a good guy multimillionaire waiting in the wings for something mechanical that will smash this paradigm apart.

I need something that will convince me though before I fully approach him.

Kit form is the aim.

Grass roots movement.

So many people want to screw these parasites that are screwing us.

[soundiceuk]

I'm pretty convinced anyway, I just keep asking myself is this the right direction to put any of my money.

I have designs buzzing through my head all the time.

I'm trying to keep away from using magnets, but somewhere in the design they are always needed with mechanical devices, otherwise no electricity.

So now I try and stay away from neos as the rug could be pulled away on that one.

I guess steel is a lot harder to stop, because there is too much of it around.

That's why I strongly feel it will be a mechanical device that breaks through to the masses.

It will be something really simple in the end, like this.

[woopy]

Hi Matt

Thank's for explanations

I have taken out one of my proto ( i always try to not dismantle the proto because never knows perhaps later ...) and so i could place my fingers on the machine and remember the feeling.

So as you can see in my vidéo, i have used the "max torque" point to operate some piezos on a LED bank , and the "max stroke " point to operate a magnet through a coil, and also light LED.

But now i remember my questions of that time,

So if the system is strongly fixed, that is that the bouncer can almost not bounce, the energy needed to rotate the "triangle weight" is very small.

But if you let the bouncer, bounce a lot, you get a very strong downward bouncer's force, but you also need much more power to keep the "trianle weight " spinning.
Because the pendulum "triangle weight" is acting by traveling downwards. and the bouncer is attracted and it also is traveling downwards. so after 6 o'clok triangle's station, both the "triangle weight" and the bouncer have to regain altitude .

This is why i got some question on your animation with the crankshafts system.
And i would be very pleased if you would like to present the results you got on your working machine. Sorry to be insisting.

I have already found some very powerfull neo mag , to redo a bigger sandwitch motor for a bigger bouncer .

Hi Paul (soundiceuk)

I don't see how you intend to use the one way bearings in the Matt's bouncer ?

Have you any news from Mikael and his wheel?

Good luck at all

Laurent

[soundiceuk]

I don't see how you intend to use the one way bearings in the Matt's bouncer ?

Hi Woopy, it was a flash of madness and I soon realised it wasn't necessary. Silly me!

I was thinking how the pendulum would attach to the spindle and drive a flywheel and/or a pulley to an alternator. I think grub screws, press fit or welded would be better in Matt's design.

Sometimes I act without thinking properly (sleep deprivation).

Have you any news from Mikael and his wheel?

Not for a while. I shared some designs and he disappeared again.

He tends to do that alot, but we all have our private lives and families etc.

I'm certain he will be back.

I don't think he has bettered his results with the 32 x 6kg pendulums yet.

The device must suffer from reverse torque, but I think the inertia cancels it out. It does weight about 250kg.

I think this is why people who build something small get discouraged by a certain design and move on, not knowing that if they had continued to increase the mass and the strength of the device, they would have unlocked the inertia properties.

Looking at builds of Mikhail's wheel with 32 low kg pendulums and Mikhail's 32 x 6kg tells me that.

Matt's concise simulation also shows some amazing figures when the mass higher.

How much would you charge per hour for simulation work Matt?

Thanks,

Paul

[navigator]

Very interesting thread. I built a battery charger that developed the same forces, here is the thread.

At the end of the thread we were discussing different ideas for harnessing the force. for me it was to make it run smoother, now I realise that force could turn a crankshaft. The last experiments I did used 2 springs, one pulling up and one pulling down, on the cantilevered side, which removed most of the vibration. This helped alleviate the connections coming loose and break down. Previously I was able to only keep it running for short periods of time, less than 1 hour. With this new set-up, it was increasing speed and I stopped it after 2 hours. I used 4 AA duracell rechargeable battery's and they all showed +.4 - +.7 volts after. At that point I felt I had proven the concept to myself and without the cash to build it right, I never really persued it further. So there it is.

Thanks for the thread, and everybody openly sharing ideas.

[Matthew Jones]

Woopy I never got positive results from the working model as it would not hold together. It got dangerous before I could do a lot of measurement. I had crankshaft on it once and it last about 20 rotations before it jammed from being bent. I'll post pictures tomorrow.

I am considering small one right now if my time doesn't fill up to quik.

I am about to plant my second winter crop and start the third. 9000 plants got to get in the ground. My Organic certification is coming soon and I need a real good year to get this place up and running like need it.

Right now I am not taking anymore work than I have already. Especially not on a computer Sorry.

Matt

[woopy]

Thank's Matt

hope all the best for your work.

And thank's for giving me the opportunity to revisit this fantastic bouncing work.

good luck at all

laurent