Ongoing "Radiant" Discussion

[gotoluc]

This coil I've been working on can pulse itself. I have a method of designing the coil to self-regulate the current and pulse time (no transistor or 555 timer). This one only works at 6V but i'll be working on a 12V soon. I'll post vids when I get it working properly.



Ecoman

Hi Ecoman,

to the Forum

Now that's interesting looking forward to the video or just more information.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

[Farmhand]

Circuit Drawing

This circuit is the one I use Sucahyo, with 12v it's output frequency is around 5khz air cored and 2.7 khz with rod core. It works great. But it is disconnected the frequency seems to change as well, mine has 20 k resister in place of 18 k on the drawing. To me the charging seems better with the core in, better power transfer maybe. And desulfating better with air core, higher frequency.

This is the waveform air cored.
http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/...0SS.JPG?psid=1

Using a calculating program "Electronics Assistant" I figure it can store over 1 coulomb or 10 joules of energy in 60,470 uf of capacitors in parallel in short time it's very handy.

Cheers

[Jetijs]

Luc, the schematic is only an example, you can use as many strands/transistors as you want. The larger capacity battery that you need to charge, the more strands will be needed to charge it up in a good time. In the schematic there are 4 power coils, in my real setup there are 5 power coils. Each power coil has its own transistor, I used 2N3055 transistors. The coil has 6 strands of wire (not twisted) about 40 meters long, some 350 turns. This is not crucial, I had coils oscillating with 200 turns and with 1000 turns. The turn count affects the running frequency, the smaller the turn count, the higher the frequency. This also can be adjusted by the base resistor. It needs to be at least 10w. The base resistance also adjusts the overall current draw, for example this is how I adjust it. If I have to charge up a big 100Ah battery, that could be 5A of charging current in c20 rate. This means I need to adjust the base resistance till the circuit will consume those 5A. I found that good results are achieved if you have about 0,7A or less per transistor, so at 5A of charging current would need at least 6 strand coil. So the higher the strand count the better And yes, the circuit starts oscillating by its own just as the switch is flipped. I don't know about the resistance. The wire diameter is about 0.7mm

[nilrehob]

I think this circuit fits in this thread as well:



I haven't had the opportunity to try it myself, but i think of it as a Tesla-switch without the switching.

/Hob

[gotoluc]

Thanks Jetijs for the added details

Luc

[SeaMonkey]

Hello SeaMonkey,

I started experimenting about 4 years ago (with no background in electronics). I mostly learned from my experiments.

I've pulsed all kinds of coils over the years and always posted video's of the more interesting stuff. I cannot say that I ever got any good results in using a pulsed coil Inductive flyback to charge a good size battery like 110AH Marine Deep Cycle battery.

I've been away from my lab this spring & summer restoring and now recently enjoying a 23 foot long Pearson sailboat that I bought for $350 which had been written off.

One thing I decided to get for the boat is a new 50 watts Solar panel ($150.) to charge the above battery. I must say it's doing a great job and is the best money spent that has given me free power out of the box compared to all the hundreds of dollars of stuff I bought for my experiments . However, I'm sure the battery will start to sulfate and start to loose it's charge capacity over time.

With this said, I was thinking of a circuit that would charge the battery without sulfating it. Since the solar panel has a variable voltage and current output, maybe a capacitive discharge into the coil would be the better approach to take. However, like I said above, I never had much luck with this charging large batteries.

What do you think or know about it?

Thanks for sharing

Luc

Then you're learning well as a result of your own
curiosity and experimentation!

The lead acid battery is an amazing device which
is capable of a very long life if treated with care.

Sulfation of the plates is a normal consequence of
battery discharge. When the battery is re-charged
most of the sulfation is restored to active plate
material however a small remnant of the sulfate
may remain in "pockets" of the plates.

To overcome this residual sulfation it was customary
to perform an "equalizing charge" periodically. This is
an Overvoltage Charge Cycle which will revert the
sulfation which is still fresh (amorphous) back into active
plate material and the "gassing" which occurs will "stir"
the electrolyte well in order to prevent "stratification."

In time this initially amorphous sulfate will change to
its stable crystalline form which cannot be "desulfated"
by normal charging voltages or even an equalizing
charge. As a result the battery will gradually lose its
capacity due to the increasing of the pockets of sulfation
which assume crystalline form.

The Desulfator Circuit applies to the battery being treated
very short (nanoSecond) pulses of very intense current at
a voltage which can rise to over 50 Volts on a 12 Volt battery.
This "radiant spike" of energy is capable of "desulfating" even
the crystallized stable form of sulfate and rejuvenating the
plates of the battery.

The individual spikes have a very high instantaneous power but
the average power is very low. Consequently, the battery
being treated will (should) not get hot to the touch.

Most desulfators operate at a relatively low frequency of from
1 to 5 KHz. At that range of frequencies the pulses are very
effective at desulfating and rejuvenating but will not have
sufficient power to "recharge" the battery.

Therefore, you will want to charge your battery in the "normal"
way and use the desulfator, either continuously or intermittently,
to keep the battery free of sulfation. The amount of power
needed for desulfation is low; generally less than 5 watts at the
very most. About 1 Watt is typical for even a large lead acid
battery.

The Inductor is the "workhorse" of the desulfator. It must have
a very low DC resistance (less than 0.2 Ohms - smaller is better)
and an inductance of from 100 to 500 microHenries. The inductor
can be hand made by winding heavy wire onto virtually any
magnetic core material (ferrite/powdered iron toroids, ferrite
rod, silicon steel "I" laminate bundle from an old transformer,
etc.) or it can be purchased. Any inductor with a current rating
of at least 2 Amperes will suffice.

I've attached diagrams for circuits which can be used to
"tune" the pulse width for maximum radiant spike output
from any inductor that you may desire to try.

Once the variable resistors have been "tweaked" for the
operation you desire then the values may be read with an
Ohmmeter and fixed resistors used in the final version of the
circuit. Different Inductors will require different resistance
values to get the "just right" pulse width for the best radiant
spike output with the least amount of input current.

When testing one of these circuits always have some sort of
"load" attached to the Inductor output to prevent damaging
the MosFet. A light bulb makes a good load and also will provide
a visual indication of Radiant Pulse strength. I often use a
12 Volt/ 300 mA automobile incandescent lamp.

[sucahyo]

This circuit is the one I use Sucahyo, with 12v it's output frequency is around 5khz air cored and 2.7 khz with rod core. It works great. But it is disconnected the frequency seems to change as well, mine has 20 k resister in place of 18 k on the drawing. To me the charging seems better with the core in, better power transfer maybe. And desulfating better with air core, higher frequency.

Did you use capacitor as load?

I build something like that before and the consumption increase with load.

Can you retry the experiment with 12V battery or 12V light bulb as load?

I think this circuit fits in this thread as well:

That make me wonder. What is the purposes of this thread?

If the purposes is finding a circuit that perform like what Seamonkey state, then is there proof that those circuit consumption reduce with load?

[sucahyo]

Most desulfators operate at a relatively low frequency of from 1 to 5 KHz. At that range of frequencies the pulses are very effective at desulfating and rejuvenating but will not have sufficient power to "recharge" the battery.

Are you suggesting that radiant circuit that work under 1KHz do not have power and desulfating feature at the same time?

Please mention what kind of circuit that you refer on that statement.

[Farmhand]

Hi Sucahyo, It and my SSG both use more power when disconnected from a battery too, when I fill a cap the power used increases as the cap gets full, till the circuit behaves as if patially disconnected as the delivered power to the cap is not disipated (it has no where to go) the spikes back up, and cause problems, CEMF I think thats what happens in the setups I have anyway, the quicker the load can disipate the spike energy the less power they draw.

I will test again and make sure, with some measurements recorded, no problems. Will post later today.

Cheers

[Aaron]

self or forced

And yes, the circuit starts oscillating by its own just as the switch is flipped. I don't know about the resistance. The wire diameter is about 0.7mm

And can be either self oscillating or forced oscillating depending on how
you have the trigger wired.

[sucahyo]

Hi Sucahyo, It and my SSG both use more power when disconnected from a battery too, when I fill a cap the power used increases as the cap gets full, till the circuit behaves as if patially disconnected as the delivered power to the cap is not disipated (it has no where to go) the spikes back up, and cause problems, CEMF I think thats what happens in the setups I have anyway, the quicker the load can disipate the spike energy the less power they draw.

I will test again and make sure, with some measurements recorded, no problems. Will post later today.

Ok, thanks .

There are people that achieve SSG consume less with load but only occur on very special condition. I never see SSG that does it on any condition. If yours consume less with load. You should brag about it more.

[SeaMonkey]

Are you suggesting that radiant circuit that work under 1KHz do not have power and desulfating feature at the same time?

Please mention what kind of circuit that you refer on that statement.

Desulfator Circuits are often "permanently" attached to
the battery being treated for an ongoing desulfation which
will assure that the plates are in their best possible condition.
The Desulfator is powered by the battery being desulfated.


In order to keep current drain from the battery small it is
desirable to utilize a fairly low pulsing frequency which will
have a low average power. Most desulfators will only draw
60 to 80 milliAmperes of current when operating in the range
of 1 ~ 3 KHz.

The "Radiant Spikes" are very effective at "converting" the
stable form of sulfation crystals back into active plate
materials. Research has shown that the average power
required to effectively desulfate a battery need not be
very high. What is most important is the "Instantaneous
Peak Power" of the individual spikes. That is where the
work of desulfation is accomplished.

Since the average power output of the desulfator is quite
low it is not an effective charging circuit. It is possible to
alter the operating parameters in order to make it into a
good charger.

By increasing the pulsing frequency, while maintaining the
optimal pulse width, the output power can be increased to
several tens of watts which will charge a larger lead acid
battery.

It is possible to construct a very sophisticated pulsing
circuit (externally powered) with full control of both pulsing
frequency and pulse width which would function as an
"All Purpose Battery Charger and Desulfator." The Output
Power could be varied from less than 1 Watt to more than
100 Watts if desired.

But, be aware, such a circuit would generate very large
amounts of EMI/RFI so it would have to be utilized cautiously.

[SeaMonkey]

Did you use capacitor as load?

I build something like that before and the consumption increase with load.

Can you retry the experiment with 12V battery or 12V light bulb as load?



That make me wonder. What is the purposes of this thread?

If the purposes is finding a circuit that perform like what Seamonkey state, then is there proof that those circuit consumption reduce with load?

Yes, there are circuits which display the anomalous
behavior of actually "reducing" current consumption
when properly loaded.

In those cases there is a "reflected" energy building
up within the circuit which causes an abnormally high
power consumption and high power dissipation in the
amplifying/switching device.

Once the normal load is connected the energy which
would be "reflected" back into the circuit to cause
problems is now safely "dissipated" by the load.

When the load is attached normal energy transfer
is taking place.

With high efficiency "Radiant Circuits" it is never a
good idea to remove the load. Removal of the load
will cause the High Energy Radiant Spikes to be
reflected back into the switching circuit which will
result in abnormal operation.

My experience has shown that a High Efficiency
Pulsing Circuit (Radiant Output) which is operating
normally into a load suddenly experiences loss of
load connection will go into an erratic mode of
operation. Current draw rises sharply and the
switching MosFet goes into avalanche which
causes intense heat generation and eventual
(within minutes) destruction.

[sucahyo]

Yes, there are circuits which display the anomalous behavior of actually "reducing" current consumption when properly loaded.

You call it anomalous now?

In those cases there is a "reflected" energy building up within the circuit which causes an abnormally high power consumption and high power dissipation in the amplifying/switching device.

Once the normal load is connected the energy which would be "reflected" back into the circuit to cause problems is now safely "dissipated" by the load.

Wrong. My circuit has around the same power consumption like Bedini Fan version without load and yet have much much higher output power.

I don't experience abnormal power consumption nor high power dissipation.

Definitely not because of some "reflected" energy. My posted video show my circuit consume 300mA (at 7.5V) without load. nothing abnormal about it. The insane number you see on amp meter just show screwed up meter, not an indication that the circuit actually consume that high because the heat sink stay cool. If my circuit really use 3Amp then I should have smell burning already.

With high efficiency "Radiant Circuits" it is never a good idea to remove the load.

Wrong. Stingo can run just fine without load. You are free to try it.

I think stingo can be considered high efficiency for radiant circuit at > 50%.

Removal of the load will cause the High Energy Radiant Spikes to be reflected back into the switching circuit which will result in abnormal operation.

I think that is backward. My circuit perform abnormal operation with load. Because without load my circuit consume power just like any other timer driver circuit one.

My experience has shown that a High Efficiency Pulsing Circuit (Radiant Output) which is operating normally into a load suddenly experiences loss of load connection will go into an erratic mode of
operation. Current draw rises sharply and the switching MosFet goes into avalanche which causes intense heat generation and eventual (within minutes) destruction.

Do that circuit have "anomalous behaviour"? I never experience it. I can run my circuit for hours without load without problem during spark experiment. I destroy battery cell many times because of over discharge but the circuit survive.

Sugesting that my circuit should not be run without load is misleading. Maybe there are circuit that need that, but certainly not mine.

[SeaMonkey]

You call it anomalous now?

Wrong. My circuit has around the same power consumption like Bedini Fan version without load and yet have much much higher output power.

I don't experience abnormal power consumption nor high power dissipation.

Definitely not because of some "reflected" energy. My posted video show my circuit consume 300mA (at 7.5V) without load. nothing abnormal about it. The insane number you see on amp meter just show screwed up meter, not an indication that the circuit actually consume that high because the heat sink stay cool. If my circuit really use 3Amp then I should have smell burning already.


Wrong. Stingo can run just fine without load. You are free to try it.

I think that is backward. My circuit perform abnormal operation with load. Because without load my circuit consume power just like any other timer driver circuit one.


Do that circuit have "anomalous behaviour"? I never experience it. I can run my circuit for hours without load without problem during spark experiment. I destroy battery cell many times because of over discharge but the circuit survive.

Suggesting that my circuit should not be run without load is misleading. Maybe there are circuit that need that, but certainly not mine.

A "normally" functioning "High Efficiency" pulsing circuit
would tend to increase current demand in response to
increased "loading."

When current increases as a consequence of losing the
load; that is an anomaly which indicates that something
is wrong.

The circuit to which you refer is not a "High Efficiency"
pulsing circuit. "Your Circuit" is a free running form of
"Blocking Oscillator." Whether or not it would exhibit
any "anomalous" behavior is dependent upon several
factors.

Any "un-dissipated" "Radiant Energy" circulating within
a Blocking Oscillator circuit which is operating without
a load would tend to alter its frequency of oscillation.

Whether or not any damage to the switching transistor
results would depend upon the power content of the
"Radiant Spikes." As well as the transistor's ability to
withstand transients without experiencing "reach
through" or "punch through."