Ongoing "Radiant" Discussion

[sucahyo]

Users of the CB radio transmitters were cautioned to always have either an antenna or a dummy load connected to the RF output before energizing or "keying" the microphone. Unless the transmitter circuit is properly "loaded" it will draw excessive current and quickly damage the output transistor.

Can we use the load part to charge a battery? Why is that relevant to explain radiant circuit which mostly consume more with load?

It is possible to construct a low powered circuit which would demonstrate the reduction in current demand when a load is attached. Many small oscillator circuits will operate in such a manner. The "reflected" power must be kept small in order to prevent damage.

How? please give one or two example that can use light bulb as load.

Are you familiar with the "grid dip meter" or the "gate dip meter?"

No. Have you ever heard KOR radiation and E-H antenna? If you know it I think you should include it on radiant explanation.

your "Stingo" circuit is a variation on a circuit style which had its beginnings (solid state form) in the earliest days of the transistor. It is an interesting and useful circuit for learning about the properties of the inductor.

I am interested. Can you show the original one? I would like to build one. I have some mosfet, optocoupler, timer, and high speed diode generously given by Ben.


Please keep in mind that your explanation do not explain why there are radiant circuit that consume more with load and there are radiant circuit that consume less with load. You explain both with single same explanation and thus your explanation is wrong.

Most of radiant circuit will consume more with load for example self oscillating relay, joule thief, most SSG, and all timer based switching.

In one of these, the current drops when attaching a light bulb as a load.

YouTube - Peter Lindemann Rotary Attraction Motor - First demo
YouTube - Peter Lindemann Rotary Attraction Motor 2a
YouTube - Peter Lindemann Rotary Attraction Motor 2b

We filmed those a few years ago.

I completely forgot that. Thank you for sharing .

Edit:
I don't get it. It compare shorted out output with light bulb as load and having light bulb reduce current consumption? But will watch all three to make sure.
Edit:
No without load test?

I am running a JT with a 3055 transistor to my battery bank. Is this a radiant circuit after all cause reading this thread you made me wonder guys? I am lighting a neon. In my intuition I feel that the resonance that it's important to the batteries not the power to charge.
Thanks for the discussion

Yes. While I think the quality of radiant is low but it still have radiant. Resonance will get you better efficiency. To charge a battery you need to have decent current. For 12V 7Ah, 350mA at output is recommended. But some may argue that the real current is not measureable. In my opinion, if you don't see your battery voltage to rise at least 0.01V a minute, try to increase power.

I created a simple circuit that only has two diodes, bridge rectifier and a coil configured with a switch for pulsing. No resisters, transistors or timers. I’ll explain my circuit and setup another day when it’s tested and ready.

That is great . Is that brushed motor or brushless motor?

I look forward for the time for you to publish it .

What do you mean by "draw" and "input". Circuit "draw" current and give "input" to motor?

What do you use as switch? mechanical?

I think you would be interested to this 7imix video, an implementation of stingo with motor as coil. A brushed motor will consume less with load (drag).
YouTube - Stingo Motor

Remember that radiant always goes to where it’s welcomed the most.

Can you explain more?

[sucahyo]

In one of these, the current drops when attaching a light bulb
as a load.

YouTube - Peter Lindemann Rotary Attraction Motor - First demo
YouTube - Peter Lindemann Rotary Attraction Motor 2a
YouTube - Peter Lindemann Rotary Attraction Motor 2b

We filmed those a few years ago.

After watching the video I have to disagree. While mechanical load do not change consumption. It is clear that lower impedance / heavier load increase current consumption.

Electrically, rotary attraction motor consume more with load. Shown here (1=shorted radiant output, 2=light bulb load, 3=battery load):


Compare with mine, a lower impedance load (1.5V nicad) draw less than a higher impedance load (12V):
YouTube - Stingo, reduced current consumption with lower load impedance

If the rotary attraction motor still available, I would like to know how much it draw with open radiant output, without load.

[Jbignes5]

Again I have to agree with Aaron...

Listen if we are to understand this Radiant energy we have to look at it and stop thinking it is an out going energy. If we look at the inductive spike it is a response event. We can surmise that the voltage is responsible for this event since voltage leads current and when we take into account the speed at which most are pulsing the coil it never really gets time to attract the current. That is the source then. What we need to do then is use that natural back pressure to flow through the environment between two fixed places to draw more of whatever you subscribe to. That the in and out we need to connect to the environment. Then our load which is in between the in, which utilizes the pressure and converts some of it into mechanical and heat radiative energies. But the out of our load needs to be connected back to the in of the source. We still need a cyclic event to happen but part of that cycle has exposure to the environment to scoop up what the load needs. Balancing this whole circuit should not be a problem especially when you use a calibrated load, meaning a fixed value low resistance load.

I say low resistance because that should allow you to have a better low back pressure for the system. This is usually where resonance comes in, even with high resistance loads. The problem is when you have a disconnect it goes to outrageous flows of current from the environment and kills the source. IO would say protect the source in a one way method. Thats what using a diode does. A diode also is a great way to have all one way pushes to maintain the source pump charge but they have their limitations. A good way to get around that is to use a spark gap instead. Of course the best way to get a stabilized highly controllable timing then is to magnetically quench the gap and vary the magnets proximity to the spark to get a faster switching rate. There is another good way to have the spark cleanly go off and be vary tight on the tolerance of pulse rate and that is multiple spark gaps. This process allows two things to happen. One your electrodes last way longer and two the spark is noiseless and no visual event happens even at higher pulse rates. but multi spark gaps are not easily adjustable unless you have a track like setup to move all the gaps at the same time and distance as well.

Spark gaps also allow you to interact with the environment so it should be shielded if possible. I would shield anything that you don't want to interact with this gas. That way the response when it does interact with the environment becomes more pronounced and controlled by the steam of whatever is causing the response.

I have had a moderate amount of success in this direction and I am refining my rig to plug some holes and make it look pretty for you guys. I am in the process of getting a good camera to video it to post so that will come in time.

I think Tesla was spot on about the medium but I don't think he had the direction right in the beginning. Radiant energy is energy that is attracted to the output of the pump. Usually it is an outgoing event but it sure can be attracted inwards as well. When it does it can have a greater effect because of the shrinking field it rides on or pushes back. Create a bubble and that bubble has a surface. Thats all we are doing in this case is pushing the normal pressure out. When we do that if it is done right it builds up around that field and if we let the magnetic field slam shut that built up natural gas follows it and stretches the gas around it thinner. It is the same process that we see in water and surface effects but it is 3d or sphere based. When it goes twords the source or now void it amplifies the potential or concentrates the energies. When it hits the coil it has a much higher potential because of that concentrating shrinkage.

Doing this in this manner is not a safe thing to do as it messes with the whole area. That why I think Tesla wanted to see if it works in a stream mode. In his later years he was interested in shielding technologies and with the discovery of aluminum earlier it made it easier to do. He used that in such a way that there were no holes from the pump to the ins and outs. That includes the load. How did he manage to pass this pressure through the load well Tubes basically. Triode tube fits the bill with a diode tube under it connect to the source. This allowed the in antenna to connect with the load because once attracted to the source it got trapped in the tube and could only go one way out because he had another diode tube at the in connection.
This is the three way that we see from Grays Motor setup. One way access to the source one way access to the in and only one out which could be diode protected as well going in the backward direction.

Try to think of this as a gas type process. You need to understand fluidic laws and how pressures work. That is why Tesla started investigating pumps like his Turbine. You wouldn't go and make a turbine and pipes with leaky parts would you? Why would you design a circuit with no inlet or outlet? Instead they use other things like the battery as the in and outs but then it looses a lot in the close spaced plates. So it has to draw from outside of that battery much like Bedini found out.

[Farmhand]

Hi all,
Jbignes5 I like the way you think, can't wait to see your video. I have a new setup with a radiant twist and i've nearly got all the meters snd stuff ready for another video too.

One way access to the source one way access to the in and only one out which could be diode protected as well going in the backward direction.

During my tinkering I came to the conclusion that some backwards diodes may be Zeners (Disguised and with no values)

Radiant energy is energy that is attracted to the output of the pump.

Yes I was thinking the semiconductors (and diodes) and the inductors could be inlets.

We can surmise that the voltage is responsible for this event since voltage leads current and when we take into account the speed at which most are pulsing the coil it never really gets time to attract the current.

That makes sense too.

Cheers

[Jbignes5]

I wanted to say also.

There are few points that I don't have right just yet. The way i explained it doesn't make sense when I reread it.

"Listen if we are to understand this Radiant energy we have to look at it and stop thinking it is an out going energy. If we look at the inductive spike it is a response event. We can surmise that the voltage is responsible for this event since voltage leads current and when we take into account the speed at which most are pulsing the coil it never really gets time to attract the current" (added) from the environment". That is the source then. What we need to do then is use that natural (edited) pressure to flow through the environment between two fixed places to draw more of whatever you subscribe to.(Added) Weather or not it is energy, electrons or charges it is the process that is important here." The important thing here is having an in and out that can form a channel, so to speak, to connect to the environment. Then our load which is in between the (added) Now in, which utilizes the surface area diffence as well between two fix antenna of same mass and converts some of it into mechanical and heat radiative energies in our loads. But the out of our load needs to be connected back to the in of the source (added) Pump. We still need a cyclic event to happen but part of that cycle has exposure to the environment to scoop up what the load needs. Balancing this whole circuit should not be a problem especially when you use a calibrated load, meaning a fixed value low resistance load."

I edited some of that see if that makes more sense.

[Guruji]

Jetijs Bedini Circuit

Hi Jetijs that circuit I saw it in the past but never tried it. One should do neon bulbs to transistors too?
JBignes5 you're right what you said. Once I adjusted my JT in certain frequency and the battery bank voltage went really high. Don't know what happened with just a 1" toroid JT;maybe I hit the right frequency but yes I still says that not current is esential but resonance.
Thanks

[Jbignes5]

Hi Jetijs that circuit I saw it in the past but never tried it. One should do neon bulbs to transistors too?
JBignes5 you're right what you said. Once I adjusted my JT in certain frequency and the battery bank voltage went really high. Don't know what happened with just a 1" toroid JT;maybe I hit the right frequency but yes I still says that not current is esential but resonance.
Thanks

Yeah resonance is the key with high resistive loads. But I think it works the opposite way for low resistive loads like coils and it is much harder to tune it to work well. When we resonate the circuit it in effect bypasses certain parts of a circuit that are in resonance. That has already been looked at in these threads. We know that part.

Now try to think of a way to resonate an antenna pair and let me know what your take on it is... heh.. The trick is to resonate the part of the circuit that has the highest resistance before the load. Then the load can have full power. I'm going the route of Tesla on the antenna pairs. Same mass weight but different surface area on each one. I'll let you guys know my results when the time comes.

[sucahyo]

There is another good way to have the spark cleanly go off and be vary tight on the tolerance of pulse rate and that is multiple spark gaps. This process allows two things to happen. One your electrodes last way longer and two the spark is noiseless and no visual event happens even at higher pulse rates. but multi spark gaps are not easily adjustable unless you have a track like setup to move all the gaps at the same time and distance as well.

I don't think that is possible. Spark will heat up the air it travel, and once the conducting air heated up spark will chose other route. Multiple spark may look like they all spark at the same time, but I think they light at different time.

If you want silent spark gap, use broken light bulb.

[7imix]

I don't think that is possible. Spark will heat up the air it travel, and once the conducting air heated up spark will chose other route. Multiple spark may look like they all spark at the same time, but I think they light at different time.

If you want silent spark gap, use broken light bulb.

The multiple spark gaps would be in series, not parallel. It's a technique tesla advocated. But yeah a broken light bulb is a good gap, or a specialized spark gap tube.

[Jbignes5]

in fact...

I don't think that is possible. Spark will heat up the air it travel, and once the conducting air heated up spark will chose other route. Multiple spark may look like they all spark at the same time, but I think they light at different time.

If you want silent spark gap, use broken light bulb.

If you want further stabilization all you would need to do is make sure the spark gaps are in a mineral oil or linseed oil bath. This also quiets down the spark gap and makes it just like the multiple spark gap. I would prefer both the oil filled spark gap with a magnetic component as well.

On the subject of multiple spark gaps, Tesla sure did use it. And he said that he got huge amounts of pulsations with no apparent sounds or visual effects but the pulsations were still there with no heat or destruction of the highly polished electrodes he used.

Now to the discussion of what radiance is. This radiance is out going and not returning in anyway in a real form. Pure voltage without current or is nearest to little current is the key to initiate a response in the medium. Radiance is not a back and forth method. It can be somewhat in the sense of the fields edges vary some but the main source can only be a one way ratchet type of a pump. Most Tesla coils that are in abundance are not the type of effect we are talking about. The streams are contained in cycles in the event area or tip of the coil. We pay to attract then repel the charges and that is not radiance in the effect of what Tesla found. This limits the charges interaction in the area around the tip and thats why we see the effects or streamers that appear to be coming from the tip when they are actually being pulled into and then repelled away from the source(tip electrode).

[sucahyo]

The multiple spark gaps would be in series, not parallel. It's a technique tesla advocated. But yeah a broken light bulb is a good gap, or a specialized spark gap tube.

Jbignes5 mention:
" but multi spark gaps are not easily adjustable unless you have a track like setup to move all the gaps at the same time and distance as well."

I don't think same distance is necessary for series spark gap and they all guaranteed to lit at the same time.

If you want further stabilization all you would need to do is make sure the spark gaps are in a mineral oil or linseed oil bath.

Huh? Is that possible? Can you post video showing spark gap inside an oil bath?

[Farmhand]

Hi all, I got a real bad car battery from a car I picked up cheap the battery measured .9v and am trying to restore it with a small SS oscilator I made up the real simpe bedini one, anyway it's working but a little slowly, I have ordered some 1mm, .7mm and .6 mm enamelsed wire for some better coils, but I thought I would have a go at the desulfator circuit that Seamonkey so kindly posted for us earlier in this thread. http://www.energeticforum.com/attach...desulfator.jpg

I already have a pulse generator I made for triggering my SSG so I hope I can use it with the rest of the circuit above, I also have some inductors from a high end UPS board that have 420 written on the end they look nice but are small.

Does the 420 mean 42 micro-henries ?

They may be not good enough but I can roll my own when my wire comes.

Cheers

[Jbignes5]

Jbignes5 mention:
" but multi spark gaps are not easily adjustable unless you have a track like setup to move all the gaps at the same time and distance as well."

I don't think same distance is necessary for series spark gap and they all guaranteed to lit at the same time.

Huh? Is that possible? Can you post video showing spark gap inside an oil bath?

Yeah there are plenty of examples of such spark gaps.

Nanosecond spark gap switching measurements

Pulse Power Switching Devices Gap
"2.6 Triggered spark gaps

The triggered spark gap is a simple device, a high voltage trigger pulse applied to a trigger electrode initiates an arc between anode and cathode. This trigger pulse may be utilized within the device in a variety of ways to initiate the main discharge. Different spark gaps are so designed to employ one particular method to create the main anode to cathode discharge. The different methods areas follows-

Triggered spark gap electrode configurations:

i) Field distortion: three electrodes; employs the point discharge (actually sharp edge) effect in the creation a conducting path

ii) Irradiated: three electrodes; spark source creates an illuminating plasma that excites electrons between the anode and cathode.

iii) Swinging cascade: three electrodes; trigger electrode nearer to one of the main electrodes than the other.

iv) Mid plane: three electrodes; basic triggered spark gap with trigger electrode centrally positioned.

v) Trigatron: trigger to one electrode current forms plasma that spreads to encompass a path between anode and cathode. Trigatron Photo & data

The triggered Spark gap may be filled with a wide variety of materials, the most common are- 1) Air 2) SF6 3) Argon 4) Oxygen Often a mixture of the above materials is employed. However a few spark gaps actually employ liquid or even solid media fillings. Solid filled devices are often designed for single shot use (they are only used once- then they are destroyed) Some solid filled devices are designed to switch powers of 10TW (10 000 000 000 000 Watts) such as are encountered in extremely powerful capacitor bank discharges.

Except (obviously) in the case of solid filled devices, the media is usually pumped through the spark gap. Some smaller gaps do not use this system though. Usually Gas filled spark gasp operate in the 20-100kV / 20 to 100kA range though much higher power devices are available. I have one spec for a Maxwell gas filled device that can handle 3 MA - that's 3 Million Amperes! But then it is the size of a small car!! More commonly gas filled devices have dimensions of a few inches. Packages are often shaped like large ice pucks though biconical, tubular and box like structures are also seen.

Sparkgaps are often designed for use in a certain external environment(eg. they might be immersed in oil). A system for transmitting the media to the appropriate part of the device may sometimes be included. Common environments used are: a)Air b)SF6 c)Oil Typical spark gap device no.'s are: TG7, TG113, TG 114 etc. etc. Spark gaps are damaged by repeated heavy discharge. This is an inevitable consequence of such high discharge currents. Electrode pitting being the most common form of damage. Between 1 and 10 thousand shots per device is usually about what is permissible before damage begins to severely degrade performance. EG&G make miniature triggered spark gaps specially designed for defense applications. these devices are physically much smaller than normal spark gaps (few cm typical dimensions) and designed for use with exploding foil slapper type detonators."



Oh my in my attempt to look for qualified references I found this as well: These guys stole Tesla's idea. If you look at the diagram upper right that is the Tesla circuit for impulse technology.

A Spark Key made DuCretet & Roger, Paris, France


Ok well I guess you get the idea then?

[nvisser]

Hi all, I got a real bad car battery from a car I picked up cheap the battery measured .9v and am trying to restore it with a small SS oscilator I made up the real simpe bedini one, anyway it's working but a little slowly, I have ordered some 1mm, .7mm and .6 mm enamelsed wire for some better coils, but I thought I would have a go at the desulfator circuit that Seamonkey so kindly posted for us earlier in this thread. http://www.energeticforum.com/attach...desulfator.jpg

I already have a pulse generator I made for triggering my SSG so I hope I can use it with the rest of the circuit above, I also have some inductors from a high end UPS board that have 420 written on the end they look nice but are small.

Does the 420 mean 42 micro-henries ?

They may be not good enough but I can roll my own when my wire comes.

Cheers

I built a similar circuit. Go have a look at this thread . It will show you what a 250mH coil looks like. Thick wire with not a lot of turns.
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...sulfators.html

[sucahyo]

Sparkgaps are often designed for use in a certain external environment(eg. they might be immersed in oil).

Can we really use a spark gap separated with oil to work with our application?

A broken lightbulb spark gap can be submerged into the oil and still work, but I do not call it a spark gap in oil bath.