Overunity Heating/Cooling Using the Peltier Device

[elias]

Hello Everyone

A brilliant idea came to me recently to use the Peltier heat pump as a heater: Thermoelectric effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



There are at least two advantages to resistive heating using this method:
1- In addition to resistive heating, it also pumps heat from the environment.
2- Most important of all the pumped heat is directly related to the current supplied, unlike the normal resistive heating elements which are related to current squared.

So what does this mean? it means that if we use two of these devices in series, the pumped heat would remain the same! Although the current is halved, the pumped heat in each of them is halved, But the total pumped heat is the same. This is not possible with resistive heating.

Now consider this as an example:
We have a Peltier device which upon applying 12V consumes 4A and pumps Q amount of heat. Now if we get N such devices and stack them in series, the current draw would be 4/N and the pumped heat would be N * Q/N = Q and the same! If you place N = 10, this means that you can pump the same heat by using 10 of such devices, which use only 0.4A of current (P=12*0.4) and depending on the money you want to spend, you can add as much as these devices in series. Even if you double the voltage thus making the total devices pump 2 * Q amount of heat you are still using less power (24* 0.8 = 19.2W) than a single Peltier device pumping Q amount of heat (12*4=48W).

So have we got a very efficient heat pump design here? The formulas tell so, but I don't really know, and experimentation would tell.

Note: A Peltier device is a device which two different metals are joined together, when applying current to the device heat is generated or absorbed, depending on the direction of current. The pumped heat is directly related to the current applied.



This might even result as a very efficient cooler.

What do you think?

Elias

[ashtweth]

Dont for get one of Lid's, Johnny' or slayers Joule thief's with it , this guy is almost there

YouTube - Joule Thief and Thermoelectric Generator Peltier

[seth]

Thans Ash!

Great video - i'd like to try peltier generators to run an exciter - ive always managed better results with slayers exciter than with my J.T. And this guy seems to be getting enough power. I live in a place where the winters often reach temperatures of -30, although the interior of the flats are well heated. Can anyone recommend a reliable and cheap supplier of peltier generators ?

[dutchdivco]

Sources for peltiers

I've got 4 of them;12volt, were made for those small refigerator/hot food units you can buy for your car/truck. These were "surplus" although new (never used). Big suckers. Came with a fan, to cool the hot side. I believe I got them at Gold Mine Electronics. If they don't have em, just Google "Surplus Electronics". I've got a whole bunch of places I favorited off that search.
I read this thread because I have them; wish I could understand exactly how your talking about hooking them up. Could you 'dumb down' your explanation for me?Jim

[Cherryman]

Hi, maybe this will give you some ideas as well:

YouTube - Make power and ice from heat

YouTube - Peltier pump.avi

[tutanka]

static magnetic induction..

Test what appear if you put your peltier cell trought an magnetic field.. you can connect some in parallel around an disc and rotate these trought static magnetic field.. you obtain an effect similarry to Linden experiment

[SeaMonkey]

Can anyone recommend a reliable and cheap supplier of peltier generators ?

Here is one source.

Here is another source.

[elias]

I've got 4 of them;12volt, were made for those small refigerator/hot food units you can buy for your car/truck. These were "surplus" although new (never used). Big suckers. Came with a fan, to cool the hot side. I believe I got them at Gold Mine Electronics. If they don't have em, just Google "Surplus Electronics". I've got a whole bunch of places I favorited off that search.
I read this thread because I have them; wish I could understand exactly how your talking about hooking them up. Could you 'dumb down' your explanation for me?Jim

Hi Jim,

Well you know it is not that complicated ... see suppose for example you have got 12 volts and one of those units connected to it drawing 4A of current. This unit can take Q amount of heat which is energy and pump it, ok ? now, if we want to make this unit efficient, we can add them together in series. If you connect two of them in series, the current draw will become 2A @ 12V, but, each of them now pump Q/2 amount of heat, ok, because you have two, Q/2 + Q/2 = Q amount of energy is pumped.

You are using 12 * 2 = 24 W and you are still pumping the same amount of heat as with one unit using 48W, No?

The reason is, that the pumped energy by this device is directly proportional to the supplied current, Unlike resistive heating which is R * I^2.

The formula for the Peltier effect is:


It is evident from the formula above that if your current draw becomes I/2, the pumped energy would become Q/2. Not like resistive heating at all.

It seems that Peltier devices are built very inefficient, and you can increase the efficiency of the Peltier device by adding them in series. Theoretically you can pump any amount of energy by using Potential alone, if you stack infinite amount of Petlier devices in series.

These speculations based on the above formula, and assuming that it holds true for the current passing through. Also assuming the fact that these devices are linear and resistive devices, meaning that the current draw decreases linearly by decreasing the voltage.

Looking forward for your experimentation results.

Elias

[dutchdivco]

Elias, Sorry, while I find the discussions on this forum fascinating, I'm afraid most of it is way over my head, as I am a real neophite at electronics.Hooking them up in series, should I go from the + side of the battery to 1 lead on the peltier, then from the other lead of that peltier, to the "+" lead on the second peltier, and the other lead of THAT peltier, back to the battery? Assuming I was just going to use 2 units. Also, should I use the cooling fans that came with them?They are supposed to be put on the 'hot' side.Got to talk very basic, so i can understand.Jim

[elias]

The Voltage - Current - Temperature Characteristics of a Peltier Device

Hi everyone,

I found the V-I relationship for a Peltier device:



If this is really true, my hypothesis is correct, and we can really pump any amount of heat we want with any amount of power we want. Of course there may be a threshold voltage and current, that we must consider.

Elias

[elias]

Elias, Sorry, while I find the discussions on this forum fascinating, I'm afraid most of it is way over my head, as I am a real neophite at electronics.Hooking them up in series, should I go from the + side of the battery to 1 lead on the peltier, then from the other lead of that peltier, to the "+" lead on the second peltier, and the other lead of THAT peltier, back to the battery? Assuming I was just going to use 2 units. Also, should I use the cooling fans that came with them?They are supposed to be put on the 'hot' side.Got to talk very basic, so i can understand.Jim

Jim

if you want to put your peltier devices on series, you need to connect them like this:

BAT+ ---wire--- +peltier1- ---wire--- +pletier2- ---wire--- +peltier3- ----wire---- +peltier4- ---wire--- BAT-

Ok?

[seth]

Here is one source.

Here is another source.

Thanks!!!!

Ive found a very convenient place that sells them near where i live - hopefully i'll pick one up on monday. I wanna stick the peltier between a bucket of snow (winters coming) and the transistor from my exciter, and hopefully get the exciter running.

[dutchdivco]

Elias, Thanks. Even tho I've 'played' with electricty (old motors, etc.) ever since I was a kid, I seem to be 'electrically dislexic'. Never can keep it straight as to hooking up 'in series' or in parralel, as an example.So, your illustration shows a fan, so I'm assuming I should use it for the 'hot' side.
If I'm understanding what your saying, your formulas indicate that by using multiple peltiers, IN SERIES, that the more you add, the less current used, for the same amount of cooling. Obviously there must be some practical limit.
Are you taking into account the electricity the 'cooling fans' will be using? Thanks again for dumbing it down for me! Jim

[EgmQC]

Jim

if you want to put your peltier devices on series, you need to connect them like this:

BAT+ ---wire--- +peltier1- ---wire--- +pletier2- ---wire--- +peltier3- ----wire---- +peltier4- ---wire--- BAT-

Ok?

Also don't forget that you will need 48v input if using 4 peltier in series and not 12v anymore to compensate for the voltage drop across each peltier devise. The current will stay the same but not the input voltage needed when using more than one in series.

Best Regards,
EgmQC

[EgmQC]

Hello Everyone

..................

Now consider this as an example:
We have a Peltier device which upon applying 12V consumes 4A and pumps Q amount of heat. Now if we get N such devices and stack them in series, the current draw would be 4/N and the pumped heat would be N * Q/N = Q and the same! If you place N = 10, this means that you can pump the same heat by using 10 of such devices, which use only 0.4A of current (P=12*0.4) and depending on the money you want to spend, you can add as much as these devices in series. Even if you double the voltage thus making the total devices pump 2 * Q amount of heat you are still using less power (24* 0.8 = 19.2W) than a single Peltier device pumping Q amount of heat (12*4=48W).


.......................

Elias

Why did you assume that the current draw will be 10 time less with 10 device ? The reality should not be (12v * 10Device) * 4Amps = 480W ? When you put thing in series , the amperage doesn't change but the input voltage need to be higher to compensate for the voltage drop , so 10 device who each one need 12v will require 120v input , the same thing happen if you want a example with light bulb , if you put 10 120v light bulb in series , you will need a voltage of 1200v to make them fully bright because of the voltage drop across each one. 100W light bulb is 0.833Amp , so 10 in series will be 1200v at 0.833Amp in this example.

Maybe i missed something its why i ask you.
Best Regards,
EgmQC