This is it !

[Farmhand]

Have you calmed down yet my brother ? Just kidding.

But when we start to use timers and stuff we have an overhead to make up as well, although it's only very small at very low power levels it would be hard to make that up.

It's also my opinion that a better result is obtained if the source voltage is kept as high as possible. In my case 12.5 volts or so.
If we want to double something for gain aren't we better off doubling 12 volts than 6 volts at the same current draw ?

To that end I realise that with the coil neg to the Mosfet Drain the coil is not really being pulsed "into" rather "out of" which I think as Greg has been trying to point out to me, is different.

So I was thinking about some things that I think 7imix said like pulsing the coils with a radiant output from something else or pulsing the coils with a cap discharge. That way the coil could be pulsed with 20 plus volts from an original 12 or 6 volt source. Like 6 volt battery to radiant circuit to toroid coils. Or battery to radiant circuit to cap to toroid coils.

But thats not this project i'm just theorising to try to get a better understanding so I can apply myself better.

I'm still not sure i understand fully what is going on with the self charging deal, i'm totally confused about that, i'm hoping it will just dawn on me . With any luck 7imix will do it like Greg did and explain it to me another slightly different way, if not, not to worry.

I've just gotta make a pair of small inductors and I can test my new circuit.





Cheers all

[Farmhand]

cikljamas and sucahyo, I've had a bit of a think about this efficiency thing and measurements.

The way I like to think of it is, and this is only my point of view, but it the reason why I think the self charging battery is the best way to prove this.

With a radiant circuit "for battery charging" my goal is to convert at least half the input to radiant or field energy. Because of its "good properties" then the charging battery receives from say 1 amp it gets 500Ma Normal or warm energy and 500Ma Radiant or cold energy, not considering losses, this way the battery temp should not change or the circuit temp,= 0% heat losses.

I tested my circuit and it is using 365 Ma and outputting 192 Ma. It is tuned to give a little extra EM through, a very small charge while desulfating.

Anyway just measuring the EM input/output ratio before the charging battery of a radiant circuit without any radiant conversion device incorperated ( ie. caps ) you will never see cop>1 in my opinion. You might measure it out of the battery though. The way I see it you cannot convert some of your EM input to radiant energy then expect more EM than what went in to come straight out the other side. Thats impossible in my opinion.

As far as I can tell if you want to measure your cop in EM you have to convert all the energy you make availiable to you, back to EM before you measure the output.

Cheers

P.S. As far as I can tell it is only possible to convert 50% of the EM input to radiant energy 50% cannot be exceeded in my opinion so in that respect, if there is any more than half the original EM going to the battery, maximum radiant production has not been achieved, there will also always be some EM losses as well. The EM losses are hopefully more than made up for by the superior properties of the radiant and by any environmental energy harnessed aswell which will not be measured by the meter either probably. EM meters read EM Energy.

[cikljamas]

Ok by layers I just mean layers of windings not separate pieces of wire. The circuit you have uses normal straight inductors, can you show me the drawing of the circuit you built ? When you wind a coil on a core you go back and forth in layers more windings and or more layers = more inductance, for a coil to work at maximum performance the windings should be done very neatly and the layers staggered, the layers should also have an equal number of windings. I have a coil with 80 winds in two layers it is only "one" piece of wire.

Ok, now i understand what the heck those layers supposed to be

You don't need an oscilliscope to measure frequency, period !!, my scope can't even tell me the frequency, you can measure the frequency with a DMM that is able to do that, I also said before that a DMM that can measure frequency would be helpfull. There are other ways to tell aswell.

How do you measure frequency with DMM ? Aha, Hz ! My DMM does not have
that option, to pity !

You built the circuit, and yet you did not need an oscilliscope. I am confused. You can also tune it without an oscilliscope.

Who said i did not need an oscilloscope ? If you have surplus stock send me
one (joke)...

What is your purpose. Because I was just occupying my time, constructively while I wait for Gregs circuit to pulse my big dohut core.

Farmhand, i just removed 1 uH inductor, and now i have much better
results, but also i put instead 220 uH inductor (like an resistor one)
real one with ferrite core and now i have firm 50 % efficiency which
mean that if i adjust input to 1 A, i still have 50 % efficiency output
(over 500 mA) which is interesting since with stingo and bingo with
rising input there is always decreasing output...Why is that so, what
do you mean, and do you mean that these desulfators are much
better for desulfating batteries than stingo and bingo since Sucahyo
said stingo and bingo accomplish that task too beside its main task ?

I have not built the self powered desulfator, I have built boards that can pulse coils, they can be used in different ways, I have batteries to desulfate big one's, lots of them, that is why i built them mainly, but i can also use them for other things, like producing radiant energy for lighting or whatever.

Can you explain a little bit how you use batteries to desulfate big ones
? Its a kind of unclear to me cause i think you desulfate batteries using their
own power without external power .

I'm not sure exactly what circuit you did build, can you post a drawing of the exact circuit how you are using it.

I made YOUR desulfator with cd 4001 according your diagram !

P,S. Do you like the spinning wheel song ?

I like it, but i like more these ones :
YouTube - Andy Kaufman/Tony Clifton with muppets!

YouTube - Timon and Pumbaa - Yummy yummy yummy

I reckon it's a ripper.

Are you kidding me ? Dont you know that i leave in different part of
Australia, so how do you mean i could understand this slang of yours ?
So you reckon its a ripper, haaaaa ???
But since we talk about this, tell me is this tasmanian devil so
dangerous as they say ?

YouTube - Dynamite Dinner

YouTube - Dr Devil Mr Hare Test.avi

Enjoy !

Here is another one :

YouTube - Bugs Bunny and Yosemite Sam in "Horse Hare" (1960)

[cikljamas]

Guys, what are we waiting for ?
Greg, gave us his beautiful present for Christmas,
are we going to make it or not ?
I am going to make it in next 24 hours, or less, so to
be able to put questions here if something was unclear...
Lets roll !
Thanks Greg once more, i hope we are going to celebrate
this date as conquering, achievement day...
And now, lets make it !

Farmhand, are you sleeping or what ?
Its a little bit strange silence here in last few hours,
i use to monitor this thread last days as the most
dynamic thread on the forum, so it is unusual not
to see same dynamic in last few hours, but i know
you have to rest for a while, so relax until i uncover
my results (without oscilloscope) !
And after that :
YouTube - F-16 Lowpass

Cheers !

[gmeast]

warm

Excelent.


Did the wire core get warm ?

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................................
It's dinner time.

Hi Farmhand,

This is a response from the previous page I neglected to answer, but it is an important point. As you well know, heat generation is an important factor to consider. It can tell you if you are 'over driving' something or if your load is too high for your component rating. Equally important is (heat's) role in the COP>1 analysis. On the 'plus' side, your OU circuit and load may show a 'debt' but careful measurement of heat (such as with a calorimeter set up) can put the system way, way COP>1 when the heat is considered. Cold would be nice too for those in 'hot' climates .... I've only had one of my experiments go 'Peltier' on me once ... 20 years ago ... couldn't make it go cold again ... tried for years after THAT event.

answer:
No, It does not get warm ... it stays cold just like the Mosfet. Surprised the hell out of me!

Later, thanks

[Farmhand]

Ok I think this is where our missunderstanding is,

This is the circuit I have built.


And I think this is the circuit you asked me for, I think this may be the one you built,


They are both desulfators, it doesn't matter where the power comes from if you charge a coil with it and make a spike that is delivered to the charging battery it will desulfate it. Just like a SSG, same principal.

I have not built the second one, that draws power from the battery it desulfates. The two 1000uH inductors in that circuit are to keep the power flowing the correct way to allow the circuit to spike it's source battery.

Like I said the devil is in the way it spikes the battery and how it is tuned.
Each individual circuit is slightly different unless strict specs are followed, when building them. If two identical circuits have slightly different coils they will behave differently and will perform best for a specific purpose under differing tuning parameters, but they will still work in the same way, just at different frequencies or power level for tuning parameter etc.

I do not fully uderstand these things myself thats why I experiment. These circuits i build now are for two purposes, they are usefull for thier intended function and I learn from building them and making them work better and better, and by that I mean more effective.

If one circuit is pulling 600Ma and putting 500Ma through to the charge battery you would probably consider it a good battery charger, and it would be but if it's spikes are only 30 volts at 800Hz it won't be an outstanding battery desulfator. However if another circuit is pulling only 300 Ma and putting 150Ma through to the charging battery but delivering 400 volts + spikes at 5Kz it will desulfate the battery very well and with less power, and so it would be a much more efficient circuit for desulfating. It all depends what you want.

The desulfator circuit I built can be adjusted to pull more than an amp with very little heat loss and can be used to charge a very big battery but that is not what it is designed for, with the coils it specifies, and so will produce a lot of RFI and EMR which can cause problems for other equipment and some people. Like most radiant circuits can if enough power is used.

If the basic specs are strayed from too far adjustments will need to be made to compensate.

I have some pics of the coils i made for mine i'll post them when I can soon.

Cheers

Here's my coils- They have 0.2 ohms resistance.


Bare iron powder core's


Painted with polyester insulation


Wrapped with cigarette papers and collars fitted

[cikljamas]

Farmhand, yes, just as you said i noticed after more playing
with your circuit that you good assumed i made (second
link from your last post, not first one), i noticed that it is
very good battery charger, very, very close (almost the same)
as my bingo device, and since it is so good now i have to
try that one from the first link too...Only after i made Gregs
one...Now it is very interesting this theory about increasing
voltage and decreasing efficiency, i have to consider it in
my next experiments...

But this cognition regarding so good battery charging
performances of your desulfator made me really feel good,
so thanks for that, and you know i just use 220 uH coil,
none of 1000 uH coils, and like that it works very well...
What do you think about that ?

Cheers !

[gmeast]

'coming and going'

Hey gmeast,

I have the op amp pwm built, I will try reproducing your waveforms. It looks like you use a depletion mode MOSFET? I'm not sure I have any of those.
..............................................

That sounds great. I have another scope capture I'd like to post. It is interesting in that it shows my crappy toroid smacking the battery both 'coming and going'. Something tells me that you need to have an oscillation when the transistor fires as an indication that the 'fall' time is abrupt enough to cause an effect.

The Yellow trace is the toroid pulse (Drain) and the Green trace is the 'top' of the battery. This is very exciting as far as these kinds of things can go to actually being 'exciting'.

Here is the scope capture:
http://02d1852.netsolhost.com/radian...n4r3-30pl2.JPG

I think you should shoot for something like this (though I'm not really sure I'm qualified to say that). We ARE going to make a battery self-charger that taps ZP and proves COP>1 is 'more the norm than exception' ... if we will just let it happen.

Later

[gmeast]

christmas present

Hi all,

I, in no way, would have believed I would actually get my Christmas present on time ... leave alone get it early.

"What is the fool talking about?", you say. I got my toroid supplies today!
http://02d1852.netsolhost.com/radian..._supplies0.JPG

There is the 650-52, two rolls of wire ... the 20ga is purple instead of yellow like in the video. The primary is still white. Also shown is some transformer tape and a 'baggie' of bee's wax granules.

...and lookie here:
http://02d1852.netsolhost.com/radian..._supplies1.JPG

The wire IS INDEED the Mil-Spec wire ... Teflon over silver over copper. Sorry about the close-up ... it's a little blurry ... guess my camera on Macro settings could not quite figure out what I was trying to look at ... dumb camera! But you can still see the silver plating and the copper color where I scraped off some of the silver. So I got exactly what I ordered and paid for. You worry about not getting what you paid for with something like this, but the supplier is honest and delivered what he said he would deliver.

I got these supplies from:
Hydrogen Garage LLC
Yes ... a little pricey but it's one way to be sure.

I think they still have one or two U-Wind It Kits left

Merry Christmas or Merry Whatever you honor or celebrate during these year-end seasons.

Later

[gmeast]

next scope capture

Hi all,

Here's another scope capture on the 1us sweep, 1usec pulse width. I dicked around with the gate driver settings and squared it up some and now you can really see the 'smack' the battery gets on the 'fall':

http://02d1852.netsolhost.com/radian...n4r3-30pl3.JPG

I don't know if it's a 'bad smack' ... I don't think I like that first negative, high volume dimple though. Well anyway, there ya' go.

Later

[Farmhand]

Wow that arrived quickly for you !

"What is the fool talking about?", you say. I got my toroid supplies today!
http://02d1852.netsolhost.com/radian..._supplies0.JPG

Very good, don't be in too much hurry to wind it though, we want to be as neat as possible. These core are beutifull. They would be very difficult to saturate. I have a good feeling about this project being successfull and the things we learn being very usefull in the future.

cikljamas,

But since we talk about this, tell me is this tasmanian devil so
dangerous as they say ?

No they are not dangerous, unless they attack you, I would definately not like to try petting one like a pussy cat. They have about two inches of muscle beside thier jaws, probably greater bite force than a Pit Bull dog.


They make this noise during the night, along with the sound of bone being crushed as they competely devour things, bones skin and all, they leave nothing but a red smear on the ground. They are 100% efficient devourers. I would not like to get stuck in the bush with a pair of broken legs where there are Tassie Devils.

YouTube - Tasmanian Devil screaming

YouTube - Taz devil attacks zoo keeper!

[sucahyo]

As far as I can tell if you want to measure your cop in EM you have to convert all the energy you make availiable to you, back to EM before you measure the output.

Yes, using capacitor will fasten battery charging, but I don't use it because it heat up the battery.

I agree that EM meter may not show the whole charge going to the battery. For instance, how come battery charge much faster than the manual say with radiant circuit.

I think capacitor can change radiant to EM. But if we use it to charge battery, the battery then receive it as 100% EM. I think converting to EM only needed for measurement.

I think battery swapping is easier.

now i have firm 50 % efficiency which mean that if i adjust input to 1 A, i still have 50 % efficiency output (over 500 mA) which is interesting since with stingo and bingo with rising input there is always decreasing output...Why is that so

The weakness of self oscillating circuit is they have resonant point. There is specific frequency or input current when they work best. If you want those independency you can drive the PNP base of stingo or bingo with timer like 7imix do.

[gmeast]

'nother scope capture

Hi all ... it's me again. Here's another scope capture. In this capture, you can actually see a 'charging effect. Again, the Yellow trace is the pulse to the toroid, and the green trace is the top of the battery. Notice the oscillations of the coil actually sitting on top of the diode. Also notice that the battery voltage trace (green) has an average incline, left to right and that the battery trace appears just slightly higher after the pulse than before the pulse. I guess you can can see that in some of my earlier posts too ... oh well ... can never too many pictures I always say.

WOW! You need to be able to see this in order to tune the gate driver characteristics.

Pic:
http://02d1852.netsolhost.com/radian...n4r3-30pl4.JPG

Later

[sucahyo]

Again, the Yellow trace is the pulse to the toroid, and the green trace is the top of the battery. Notice the oscillations of the coil actually sitting on top of the diode.

Thanks for the explanation. I wonder if we can add another coil that will pulse the exact time the green wave bouncing down?

[sucahyo]

This is stingo self desulfator:
Standing voltage is 4.25V. After attaching the circuit voltage go down to 2.91V that slowly rising to 2.95V.

YouTube - Stingo self desulfator