This is it !

[jacek]

Hi Farmhand,

I just installed Express PCB. It is the same 'quick-turn' software/service as Pentalogix. However, their '$51-for-3-prototype-boards' is a much better deal than Pentalogix's costs. At last glance, they wanted $150 one-time engineering charge ... that's a little high, but they do double check your files and help you fix anything for free before they burn the board ... so maybe a toss-up? ExpressPCB may offer the same though ... dunno'.

Later

Gents,

IIRC, I read somewhere that the Express PCB guys accept (unofficially, they do not advertise this on their website) E.A.G.L.E. pcb files, so if anyone is more comfortable with this software, this may be worth checking out.

Hope this helps.

P.S. Cool project, good luck!

[gmeast]

sweep

Hey Greg, I think i'm getting ahead of myself maybe, there are definately
going to be too many holes in the boards to make ourselves though. I'm up for software suggestions if anyone has any, i'm willing to pay for good software.
I'll check out the one you use first Greg.

One of those little computer controlled milling machines would be very usefull
for making all kinds of stuff for electronics. Making the holes in a pcb blank
would be a snap with one of those. Ahh to dream.

Cheers

Yippee, looks like I might have all of a sudden broken the Mhz barrier, check the shots. Thats just one coil the rest are open. Playing around with very narrow pulse and bamo 600Ma draw, can sneak it down to 300Ma stays around 1.5 Mhz, Fet still cool and very good charging as I would expect with .5 amp or so. I can't see it properly on the scope, I think because either I don't know how to use it for that frequency or it can't read it.

Scope say's it's a 5 Mhz scope , maybe thats just the sample rate or something. So it looks like with tweeking low Mhz range is possible with these 4001 chips. It fluctuates a bit though and is far from being accuritly settable.
It is interesting though.

Here are some shots

http://9xfdag.bay.livefilestore.com/...002.JPG?psid=1

Ghost Trace
http://9xfdag.bay.livefilestore.com/...005.JPG?psid=1

Starfish Trace
http://9xfdag.bay.livefilestore.com/...003.JPG?psid=1

Maybe the starfish trace above looks a little bit like the one at 1.16 mins in the video below. If I added a choke it might look even more like it.
YouTube - OU Charging effect of the hex controller

Here's my analogue scope control panel. Anyone know how I should set it for Mhz. Settings say - 1k- 10k , 10k-100k , LINE , Looks like it only reads to 100k to me.
http://9xfdag.bay.livefilestore.com/...008.JPG?psid=1

Cheers

HI Farmhand,

The sweep (range) settings on my old analyzer read like yours and meant 'screen edge to edge, whereas most scopes now read "... seconds per division". So I'm pretty sure if your scope is set on 100K, if you have 10 repeat events across the screen it's 1MHz. 'SWEEP' = sweep of the screen (cathode ray tube)'. If you count your waveforms (not #2 the double vision one) you have about 15 periodic events and that agrees with your digital instrument.

Your trace is looking much like the video I agree ... This is very exciting indeed!

I'm jealous!. Later

[Farmhand]

Gents,

IIRC, I read somewhere that the Express PCB guys accept (unofficially, they do not advertise this on their website) E.A.G.L.E. pcb files, so if anyone is more comfortable with this software, this may be worth checking out.

Hope this helps.

P.S. Cool project, good luck!

Thanks a heap jacek, we take any help we can get. I will check out that software as well. Thanks for the input and the comment.

I've got a video uploading now, could take a while. Just some interesting waveforms, first just one coil then all three. Strange traces.

I'll whack the video in here when it's up.
Video
YouTube - Skeletor Waveform.wmv

Cheers

I wouldn't be too jealous Greg, it's not very stable and prone to runaway like that. It looks like it throws the coils into self oscillation, all of a sudden.

Here's another scope shot, I managed to get all three coils pulsing at 93.07 Khz, going by the DMM. Not as good looking as the other one.

http://9xfdag.bay.livefilestore.com/...003.JPG?psid=1

Thanks for the heads up on this below, that makes sense. It's even more usefull now.

The sweep (range) settings on my old analyzer read like yours and meant 'screen edge to edge, whereas most scopes now read "... seconds per division". So I'm pretty sure if your scope is set on 100K, if you have 10 repeat events across the screen it's 1MHz. 'SWEEP' = sweep of the screen (cathode ray tube)'. If you count your waveforms (not #2 the double vision one) you have about 15 periodic events and that agrees with your digital instrument.

OK here's a video.

YouTube - Skeletor Waveform.wmv

[gmeast]

skeletor

Thanks a heap jacek, we take any help we can get. I will check out that software as well. Thanks for the input and the comment.

I've got a video uploading now, could take a while. Just some interesting waveforms, first just one coil then all three. Strange traces.

I'll whack the video in here when it's up.
Video
YouTube - Skeletor Waveform.wmv

Cheers

I wouldn't be too jealous Greg, it's not very stable and prone to runaway like that. It looks like it throws the coils into self oscillation, all of a sudden.

Here's another scope shot, I managed to get all three coils pulsing at 93.07 Khz, going by the DMM. Not as good looking as the other one.

http://9xfdag.bay.livefilestore.com/...003.JPG?psid=1

Thanks for the heads up on this below, that makes sense. It's even more usefull now.


OK here's a video.

YouTube - Skeletor Waveform.wmv

Hi Farmhand,

That Skeletor video makes my back hurt just looking at it ... ouch! That 'flavor' of waveform is still pushing in the right direction I say.

Thanks. Later

[7imix]

That waveform is beautiful! I want to hook it up to an audio amp and see what it sounds like, it looks like it has plenty of rich harmonics... Undertones...

[Farmhand]

Hi guys, This is a strange bit of gear, I ran it at 84 Khz for about 5 hours at less than 100 ma current draw and both batteries are about the same.

Not enough power to charge. I'll try it later all at 42 Khz with some more pulse width = more power, I can't get the dual baord to oscillate into the Mhz. I wish i had three boards the same now.

During the skeletor part of the video I didn't realise, but the ground clip from the single oscillator was not connected. Only the positive was connected. It still lit up the led and measured the correct frequency.
Waveform is not so bendy though it looks like the last scope shot photo I posted, similar.

Anyway nothing like a few interesting traces to keep people interested.

On a side note they are saying that north Queensland could be without power for months. Nasty situation, people need to take responsibility for themselves. Make preparations for these eventualities, I'm ready, I could survive indefinately with no external supplies. The "authorities" have no need to concern themselve's with my welfare. If everyone else did the same, the Gov. would have to find other reasons to justify stealing our money and wasting it, they have collected more than enough money for a program to put emergency power devices into the hands of the people.

I suppose they will just take 2 or 3 months to fix the transmission lines then forget about it till next time. Never mind trying to facilitate emergency power systems for the 2 or 3 months without power. During the good time's we should be preparing for the bad not spending up like druken sailors (our Gov.'s).

Our government handed out $40 billion in stimulus packages. No one bothers to make preparations. Sony playstations are more important, and keeping Central Bank profits up. The $40 billion was loaned from the Central bankers of course. We didn't have it sitting around. We will be paying the interest for a long time. They will probably take more loans before this is paid back. The Gov. should have put that money into an emergency power source for every household. Abosolutly incompetant. Almost criminal neglegence.

Government = Fail
Hows that for a rant, now i feel a little bit better.

Vegetation controll is my job today, goats can't keep up since all this rain,Grass is out of controll, I need to get some more grass eaters, numbers should double next birthing season I hope.

Cheers all.

[gmeast]

you too?

Hi guys, This is a strange bit of gear, I ran it at 84 Khz for about 5 hours at less than 100 ma current draw and both batteries are about the same.

Not enough power to charge. I'll try it later all at 42 Khz with some more pulse width = more power, I can't get the dual baord to oscillate into the Mhz. I wish i had three boards the same now.

During the skeletor part of the video I didn't realise, but the ground clip from the single oscillator was not connected. Only the positive was connected. It still lit up the led and measured the correct frequency.
Waveform is not so bendy though it looks like the last scope shot photo I posted, similar.

Anyway nothing like a few interesting traces to keep people interested.

On a side note they are saying that north Queensland could be without power for months. Nasty situation, people need to take responsibility for themselves. Make preparations for these eventualities, I'm ready, I could survive indefinately with no external supplies. The "authorities" have no need to concern themselve's with my welfare. If everyone else did the same, the Gov. would have to find other reasons to justify stealing our money and wasting it, they have collected more than enough money for a program to put emergency power devices into the hands of the people.

I suppose they will just take 2 or 3 months to fix the transmission lines then forget about it till next time. Never mind trying to facilitate emergency power systems for the 2 or 3 months without power. During the good time's we should be preparing for the bad not spending up like druken sailors (our Gov.'s).

Our government handed out $40 billion in stimulus packages. No one bothers to make preparations. Sony playstations are more important, and keeping Central Bank profits up. The $40 billion was loaned from the Central bankers of course. We didn't have it sitting around. We will be paying the interest for a long time. They will probably take more loans before this is paid back. The Gov. should have put that money into an emergency power source for every household. Abosolutly incompetant. Almost criminal neglegence.

Government = Fail
Hows that for a rant, now i feel a little bit better.

Vegetation controll is my job today, goats can't keep up since all this rain,Grass is out of controll, I need to get some more grass eaters, numbers should double next birthing season I hope.

Cheers all.

Hi Farmhand,

Now you know how I feel about our INCOMPETENT, CLUELESS, OUT-OF TOUCH, ARROGANT, CRIMINAL, SELF-SERVING and CLASS-GENERATING, idiot senators and congressmen/congresswomen (can't be sexist now) ... to say nothing of our MAFIA-STYLE INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE THUGS that prey on the uninformed and easily-intimidated.

There ... I feel much better now. Anyone else have the balls to say it like it is?

Well ... that was fun.

Later

[marxist]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arduino

I want to apologize for the silly statements in my last posting regarding the duty cycle. I edited the posting accordingly.

Then I want to bring this to your attention:
Arduino - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is about a Europe based open source micro controller platform (but shipping world wide).
On the page is says:

The Diecimila (version), now superseded by the Duemilanove, for example, provides 14 digital I/O pins, six of which can produce PWM signals, and six analog inputs.

I am optimistic that gmeast's effort to find a simple solution for the 3-phase driver will bring good results, but in case you want to move to micro controllers in the future, maybe the above would be an option.
Thanks.

[Farmhand]

Hahaha, well said gmeast, your description is much more elegant and to the point. I could have used a lot less words and it still would have been fun. It does feel good to remind myself why we all, everybody on these types of forums must uncover and develop alternative energy device's. Start of rant 2. We just can't trust or wait for the gov. to do it when there are no kickbacks in it for them. I must give credit where credit is due though, our premier Anna Bligh aka "Captain Bligh" has been front and center during the whole disaster season. She has really stepped up to the plate. The problem of course is even if she were to "change her spots" so to speak and try to do common sense things to make people as independant as possible, she would be quashed by the weight of numbers of the self serving polititian Morons surrounding her.

I appologise but I feel for all the poor people in the heat with no fresh food or refrigeration. We all saw that with Katrina, the worst came after the storm.
OKOK enough misery from me again. End rant.

....................

Greg I get the feeling that the rolling type trace that was the first part of my last video is similar to what we can expect from phase firing this baby but x 3.

Because the power will be drawn and delivered out of phase the effectiveness should be much better. I really don't see there is any way we can fail.

I hope our friend cikljamas will be around again when we finish, there will be a board with his number on it. I'll post him one if I must.

I have a question for someone, for some reason the 4011 chips work differently to the 4001 chips one is a NOR gate and one is a NAND is there any reason they would work different like inverted or something ? They look the same layout just different symbols. But when i swap one chip for the other it don't work. I'm stumped.

Cheers

[gmeast]

Nor Nand

Hahaha, well said gmeast, your description is much more elegant and to the point. I could have used a lot less words and it still would have been fun. I does feel good to remind myself why we all, everybody on these types of forums must uncover and develop alternative energy device's.
.................................................. .................................................. ............................................
I have a question for someone, for some reason the 4011 chips work differently to the 4001 chips one is a NOR gate and one is a NAND is there any reason they would work different like inverted or something ? They look the same layout just different symbols. But when i swap one chip for the other it don't work. I'm stumped.

Cheers

Hi Farmhand,

NOR & NAND are two completely different logics. NOR is a (not)OR gate and a NAND is a (not)AND gate. I am using all of the basic gates in our system ... NOT, NOR, AND, NAND and they all do specifically different things, although most gates can be synthesized by combining other gates. The logic circuit 7imix was so kind to whip up for us is a very specific gate combination designed to do one thing and one thing only.

If the schematic calls for NAND gates, NOR gates cannot be substituted and visa versa unless other gates are also combined to synthesize the desired function. They both have quite different 'Truth Tables'.

Hope this helps.

Later

[Farmhand]

I want to apologize for the silly statements in my last posting regarding the duty cycle. I edited the posting accordingly.

Then I want to bring this to your attention:
Arduino - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is about a Europe based open source micro controller platform (but shipping world wide).
On the page is says:
I am optimistic that gmeast's effort to find a simple solution for the 3-phase driver will bring good results, but in case you want to move to micro controllers in the future, maybe the above would be an option.
Thanks.

No probs marxist, all discussion give's us a better understanding. I am confident of Gmeast's PWM being very good too. But if there is problems we will just have to overcome them to the best of our abilities, I trust Gregs judgement. And I don't think Micro's are needed. I also believe it would benifit a lot to have a simple non micro setup to use.

However I would like to try some Micro stuff later on down the track. For other things as well but I need to keep my mind on whats happening with this setup. I will consider the ardino when the tim is right. Thanks your and others input is appreciated.

It's a funny thing for me, I seem to be able to use these type of electronic thing's and I have a pretty good idea of what's happening in there, and what I need to do to get the result I want. But putting the right componants together the right way without making too many mistakes is a real nightmare for me. Especially the really little things and the delicate ones.

Getting back to the pulse width thing I often use up to 23% or so duty for battery charging at less than 4 Khz, for desulfating it depends on the battery and it's condition, but about the same frequency and much quicker pulses = a lot less power. I think the speed of the rise fall is most important, the shorter pulse just save's power. Sometimes a bit of power is required in my opinion.

Although charging can be done by raising the frequency to increase power, which although the actual "on" time in seconds is the same the duty is more because each cycle is a shorter time period so the on time become's a greater percentage of the cycle. But you probably already knew that.

A bonus of raising the frequency is there is more cycles and higher duty for the same actual pulse time. If the pulse width is too wide or the rise and fall time's are too slow the achievable frequency will be less, the latter will mean the pulse cant fit closely together because the side's are not straight up and down.

I think i got that all correct. Plese tell me if I went wrong there somewhere someone.

Cheers

[Farmhand]

Hi Farmhand,

NOR & NAND are two completely different logics. NOR is a (not)OR gate and a NAND is a (not)AND gate. I am using all of the basic gates in our system ... NOT, NOR, AND, NAND and they all do specifically different things, although most gates can be synthesized by combining other gates. The logic circuit 7imix was so kind to whip up for us is a very specific gate combination designed to do one thing and one thing only.

If the schematic calls for NAND gates, NOR gates cannot be substituted and visa versa unless other gates are also combined to synthesize the desired function. They both have quite different 'Truth Tables'.

Hope this helps.

Later

Hi Greg, thanks for that. But that doesn't explain why the original Desulfator circuit says both can be used.

http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/...tor.jpg?psid=1

Is it possible that the reisistances of the pots would be reversed as in, when with one I raise the resistance to lower frequency (4001) while with the (4011) would I need to lower resitance to raise the frequency ? Same with pulse width with the 4001 chip I raise the resistance to increase the width, maybe these are reversed for the 4011 chip. Thats the only thing i can think of. The schematic says they can both be used. If things were reversed it might explain why the big current draw when I swap them. Dunno.

Cheers

[7imix]

I want to apologize for the silly statements in my last posting regarding the duty cycle. I edited the posting accordingly.

Then I want to bring this to your attention:
Arduino - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is about a Europe based open source micro controller platform (but shipping world wide).
On the page is says:
I am optimistic that gmeast's effort to find a simple solution for the 3-phase driver will bring good results, but in case you want to move to micro controllers in the future, maybe the above would be an option.
Thanks.

Hey, thanks. I have an Arduino and I wrote a patch for it last October that just does pulsing in a tight loop with timing controlled by a number of NOOP calls in assembly. I wasn't very satisfied with the rise and fall times, and I never wrote frequency tuning into it (I just played with pulse width and frequency by copy pasting NOOPS) so I lost interest and looked for other rectangle wave generators.

I found out recently that I can pull the atmega off the Arduino after I program it and clock it with my own chip, so I'd be interested in trying it. I pulled the chip off my board and put it in a wire wrap socket, but now I need to go read up on how to power and clock the chip. Also I need to learn how to make the frequency and pulse width adjustable... I know I can use some of the analog pins but I haven't read up on how to do that yet.

I have a feeling we will find a clock circuit that works at high frequencies and only uses a handful of extremely cheap parts, so I think that's still an ultimate goal, but in the meantime the programmability of a micro makes experimentation with a wide variety of frequencies and frequency relationships possible, so that would be very interesting.

[7imix]

I have a question for someone, for some reason the 4011 chips work differently to the 4001 chips one is a NOR gate and one is a NAND is there any reason they would work different like inverted or something ? They look the same layout just different symbols. But when i swap one chip for the other it don't work. I'm stumped.

Cheers

inverters have one input, and, or, NAND, nor gates have two or more inputs and turn on the output depending on which combinations of inputs are on.

If the input of an inverter is on, the output will be off. This is NOT: !

!1 = 0
!0 = 1

If some combination of the inputs of and or or gates are on, the output will be on.

And is the Boolean AND: &

0 & 0 = 0
1 & 0 = 0
0 & 1 = 0
1 & 1 = 1

Or is the Boolean OR: |

0 | 0 = 0
1 | 0 = 1
0 | 1 = 1
1 | 1 = 1

NAND and NOR gates are simply AND and OR with a NOT after them, so take the table inputs and just flip the outputs.

There's also XOR and maybe others, the exclusive or, which I think makes 1 | 1 = 0 but don't know enough to explain them yet.

Hope this helps

Also with regard to burning out components, I'm trying out wire wrapping my circuits, they are a lot easier to repair and modify and they don't need soldering, which is awesome because soldering can be hard and annoying sometimes. The electrical connections are also supposedly better than soldering.

[7imix]

If you try to substitute a NAND or NOR gate for a NOT gate make sure you short the two inputs of the gate together. This will make both inputs of the gate either 0 or 1 and if you look at the truth tables the output will therefore be either 1 or 0, like an inverter.

Also some gates have open collector outputs, which means the output needs to have either a pull up or pull down resistor to be able to source or sink current. I messed around with it for a while and just went back to using the inverters since they are so easy and convenient.

On another note, I also tried taking your desulfator and replacing one of the pots with a diode to make the pulse width as short as possible. It worked pretty well.