It Works!!! But Why???

[Vickers]

I have a 7 horsepower 4 stroke generator engine that runs fine on 50/50 ethanol/water mix?
It wont cold start but will start easily if warmed up so I use engine start spray can to get it going.
Will only run if the choke is fully on.
Any less than 50% ethanol wont work.
It idles and revs like normal.
I'm stumped. Anyone have any ideas why or how this works?

[bugler]

Talking a guess I would say that you can consider that half of the fuel entering the engine (the water) doesn't, for obvious reason burn so you need the choke on to add more fuel making up for the half not burning.

So you save half in the mixture but at the end spend double in the burning.

The reason why your engine doesn't start until it is hot could be that when hot the water is steem so it acts like air. When cold the water stops the burning.

Make sense? I am right now studying combustion engines.

[teslaproject]

Water

Vickers

You have to understand that in this case you are NOT combusting the water, only the ethanol and that's why you need a minimum 50% mix.

The previous reply was correct in a cold start situation. There are a number of factors here. For a moment I will talk as though you are burning ethanol alone. Even 100% ethanol does not have the same accelerative flash rate as that of a petroleum distillate (hence why you have found using a aerosol starter works). This all changes once the engine becomes hot because once the ethanol spray is sucked through the carb into the hot engine, it instantly 'flashes' into a gas like state making it's combustion a lot easier than when the engine was first cold.

Now lets talk about the water. All you are doing is what has already been done (and is STILL used) in industry today. You are performing a very crude version of water injection. High performace aeroplanes with turbine propeller engines such as those used in the Red Bull Air Race use water injection to achieve a couple things - 1) Imagine that water suddenly expanding into steam and this increases compression and performance. 2) Cools the engine and stops knocking.

Wikepedia sums it up nicely - "In internal combustion engines, water injection, also known as anti-detonant injection, is a method for cooling the combustion chambers of engines by adding water to the cylinder or incoming fuel-air mixture, allowing for greater compression ratios and largely eliminating the problem of engine knocking (detonation). This effectively increases the octane rating of the fuel, meaning that performance gains can be obtained when used in conjunction with a supercharger or turbocharger, altered spark ignition timing, and other modifications."

Of course these are high performace machines which have been tuned to the N-th degree. Too much water and you destroy the engine easily. It's all a balance of getting the heat, compression, oil ratio (there always has to be lube) and timing of spark spot on. Anything much less than perfect and the engine just runs to destruction, if not long term maybe short term in fantastic pyrotechnic fashion with bits of metal flying everywhere. Water injection is used on engines which normally have a much higher compression ratio which can handle the stress rather than a petrol engine such as what you are using.

This is one for the experienced specialist mechanic, not back yard tinkerer. Be careful is all.

Hope this helps.

TP

[Vickers]

I see your sense Tesla, but am still baffled. Have run my Nissan van as well as my friends twin turbo Subaru on this recently. More power than gasoline?
My buddy wants a continuous supply.
I think there is some steam thing happening there. And it is good.
Exhaust smells like dragster fuel but less harsh on the nose.
And unfortunately ethanol is free if u now how to make it.

Spank me if I'm wrong but I think a fuel that mixes freely with water gives explosive steam generating power. Like those old trains etc...that early automobiles were based on...and to this day still have a piston and crank.
Its not SPECIAL. The internal combustion engine today is very hardy compared to an old steam train engine.

I go a step further and bring up prohibition. Wasn't that odd?????
USA bans alcohol/ethanol? The land of the free. Dukes of Hazzard. Its so strong it will run yer car. .....Ask Henry Ford. Or at least google his relationship with Rockefeller.

[bugler]

And unfortunately ethanol is free if u now how to make it.

Can you elaborate on that?

[Vickers]

Can you elaborate on that?

Moonshine my friend.
Yeast, sugar, water, sun =ethanol + carbon dioxide
Carbon dioxide, plants, water , sun = sugar + oxygen
Nice little cycle there.

[SeaMonkey]

I have a 7 horsepower 4 stroke generator engine that runs fine on 50/50 ethanol/water mix?
It wont cold start but will start easily if warmed up so I use engine start spray can to get it going.
Will only run if the choke is fully on.
Any less than 50% ethanol wont work.
It idles and revs like normal.
I'm stumped. Anyone have any ideas why or how this works?

First, you should be congratulated for having the
curiosity and where-with-all to perform such testing!

Rudolf Gunnerman some years ago developed a fuel
for internal combustion engines which was half water
and half benzene (naptha.) It worked very well in
engines which were "modified" to use it.

If you were able to increase the compression ratio of
your small engine to 10:1 or higher your alcohol/water
mix would perform even better. The next thing you
would need to do is put in a "hot" ignition system
(plasma) to better ignite the water based fuel.

You are achieving "water injection" in the best possible
way - putting the water directly into the fuel. With
higher compression and hotter spark you wouldn't need
to make the mixture "rich" by using the choke.

As you've discovered, it is best to pre-warm the engine
before using the water/alcohol fuel mix. Running it for
a few minutes on gasahol (E-85) to get it up to temperature
is a good approach.

Your alcohol/water fuel should be pollution free and very
clean burning according to the research of Rudolf Gunnerman.


Interesting Reading

More Here

[Vickers]

Nice links Seamonkey. Just about covers everything. I knew there must have been a simple answer.
Mr Gunnerman has done some serious testing with amazing results.

I find the catalyst part very interesting. I wonder if nickel plating the piston would help with dissociation?
Also interesting was the computer fuel injection engine test he does.
I tried the mix on a tricked out Subaru and it ran better than on gas but may not be as effective on a standard injection engine. But the mods seem easy enough.

The best thing is I will no longer have babysit my 180 proof still all day.
Making 100 proof is a breeze.

[Vickers]

Soap...or rather Glycerin.or any detergent solvent used to excess , Unites water with gasoline 60/40 with outstanding results
At least 10 percent more power by my tests. On an old Nissan Van. Same mileage as well. Plugs are good. Oil is good. Everything is good. I am happy.

[sebosfato]

Vickers,

Try the following,

Water with sodium hydroxide and alcohol, into a simple electrolyser.

You add this mix gas into your intake. You will see a big magic.

Actually you can create a burning flame directly over the water.

The hotter the solution get the better the effect so you can use directly 12v and two ss plates if you want less amps use 3 plates in series leaving the central not connected.

If you try this you will notice that for the amount of alcohol you put into the water (few ml) if you burn this same alcohol without this solution it will burn blue and will last only maybe one minute. On the water more than ten minutes big yellow and hot flame just over the water. Like john kanzius.

I tried only dc. I made this test 2,5 years ago... And is just as i said.

You are getting better mileage cause water expand more than air.. so you are using more efficiently the heat, converting it to expansion. Yes like was said, you would get an even better efficiency with higher compression ratio.

Here in Brazil we have still many alcohol only cars and those have higher compression rate cause the alcohol different than gasoline don't make that pre explosion effect (detonation) under higher pressure.

Today cars runs on 3 fuels so they made them less efficient (less compression rate) to be able to run any fuel. Natural Gas, gasoline and alcohol here. Again less efficient.